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This comment downplays the CCPs authoritarian regime. It matters what you do with the surveillance (Uighur genocide). In many ways China's tracking is much mor

This comment downplays the CCPs authoritarian regime. It matters what you do with the surveillance (Uighur genocide). In many ways China's tracking is much more intrusive. Noone should spy on its citizens, but at least you have trials in the West.

sneak 5y ago
The US imprisons its ethnic minorities in inhumane camps (where torture in the form of extended stays in the SHU is not only legal but routine, as well as the same forced sterilizations) at a rate 17x higher (per capita) than China does, FWIW. https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-sterilizing-prisoners/ https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-steril... It does matter what you do with the surveillance. Senior DEA officials say they use warrantless mass surveillance to perform parallel construction "almost daily", according to Reuters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2013... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction Trials are mostly for show, as the actual source of the evidence in these kinds of cases is completely illegal under the US constitution, and the evidence admitted and used in the sham trials is actually inadmissible under the rules of evidence ("fruit of the poison tree"). From the Reuters article above: > The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to “recreate” the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant’s Constitutional right to a fair trial.
- throwaway292893 5y ago
  Complete FUD. Nice article full of nothing to distract though. There are millions of Uighurs in concentration camps right now, sterilized, raped, beaten. https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ I don't know if you are part of the 50 cent army, but your talking points mirror them.
  - sneak 5y ago
    It's very well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
    - throwaway292893 5y ago
      So is the Uighur genocide, lets be angry about it all. The difference is, the Uighurs only crime is being ethnic, there are other things at play with incarceration numbers. All races are incarcerated, only Uighurs are rounded up and sent to their own special work camps with no crime needed. You're trying to compare prison with concentration camps, that's FUD.
      - sneak 5y ago
        I agree, but we can do a lot more about it in the places we have political authority, so long as we don't dismiss the very real threat to millions of US minorities of torture, forced sterilization, and a lifetime of stigmatization as "complete FUD". People who don't compare US prisons (where overcrowding, rape, physical and psychological abuse, poor medical care, lack of hygiene supplies, and torture are completely routine) to concentration camps are ignorant of the realities of the situation.
      - 1cvmask 5y ago
        We don’t care about it anywhere when we pay and commit it. In fact we give the leaders who commit multiple genocides Nobel Peace Prizes.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  There's also the fact it seems to be routine for prosecutors to offer deals to people where they just plead guilty straight up in return for lighter sentencing. I can only wonder how many innocent people take this deal.
1cvmask 5y ago
We have held people (including Uyghurs) in Guantanamo bay without trials or being charged for up to and over 18 years. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918454831/trial-of-sept-11-defendants-at-guant-namo-delayed-until-august-2021 https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918454831/trial-of-sept-11-de... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/uighur-men-leave-guantanamo-bay-slovakia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/uighur-men-lea... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo...
- throwaway292893 5y ago
  Because they were terrorists, we didn't hold 3 million of them in gitmo simply because they were ethnic minorities. Orders of magnitudes in difference. Holding a few dozen suspected terrorists !== holding 3 million people (nearly an entire race) You can justify there may be proof for those few alleged jihads. You cannot reasonably prove those 3 million people are all terrorists. Where are the cries to shut down these camps like there were cries to shut down Gitmo?
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    They were alleged terrorists. They were released after they were found to not be terrorists. Otherwise they would still be in captivity I suppose.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    China's justification for holding Uyghurs is that they are terrorists, with a similar amount of evidence provided as for Guantanamo detainees.
    - MagnumOpus 5y ago
      Orders of magnitude. While both strain credulity, it is more plausible to take a government at its word for 300 people than for 3 million. Plausibly it could be the case that there are 100 wrongly imprisoned people in Camp X-Ray without legal recourse... But equally plausibly there are at the very least 1,000,000 wrongly imprisoned people in the Uyghurstan concentration camps, with thousands added every day...

sneak 5y ago

The US imprisons its ethnic minorities in inhumane camps (where torture in the form of extended stays in the SHU is not only legal but routine, as well as the same forced sterilizations) at a rate 17x higher (per capita) than China does, FWIW. https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-sterilizing-prisoners/ https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-steril... It does matter what you do with the surveillance. Senior DEA officials say they use warrantless mass surveillance to perform parallel construction "almost daily", according to Reuters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2013... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction Trials are mostly for show, as the actual source of the evidence in these kinds of cases is completely illegal under the US constitution, and the evidence admitted and used in the sham trials is actually inadmissible under the rules of evidence ("fruit of the poison tree"). From the Reuters article above: > The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to “recreate” the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant’s Constitutional right to a fair trial.

throwaway292893 5y ago
Complete FUD. Nice article full of nothing to distract though. There are millions of Uighurs in concentration camps right now, sterilized, raped, beaten. https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ I don't know if you are part of the 50 cent army, but your talking points mirror them.
- sneak 5y ago
  It's very well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
  - throwaway292893 5y ago
    So is the Uighur genocide, lets be angry about it all. The difference is, the Uighurs only crime is being ethnic, there are other things at play with incarceration numbers. All races are incarcerated, only Uighurs are rounded up and sent to their own special work camps with no crime needed. You're trying to compare prison with concentration camps, that's FUD.
    - sneak 5y ago
      I agree, but we can do a lot more about it in the places we have political authority, so long as we don't dismiss the very real threat to millions of US minorities of torture, forced sterilization, and a lifetime of stigmatization as "complete FUD". People who don't compare US prisons (where overcrowding, rape, physical and psychological abuse, poor medical care, lack of hygiene supplies, and torture are completely routine) to concentration camps are ignorant of the realities of the situation.
    - 1cvmask 5y ago
      We don’t care about it anywhere when we pay and commit it. In fact we give the leaders who commit multiple genocides Nobel Peace Prizes.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
There's also the fact it seems to be routine for prosecutors to offer deals to people where they just plead guilty straight up in return for lighter sentencing. I can only wonder how many innocent people take this deal.

1cvmask 5y ago

We have held people (including Uyghurs) in Guantanamo bay without trials or being charged for up to and over 18 years. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918454831/trial-of-sept-11-defendants-at-guant-namo-delayed-until-august-2021 https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918454831/trial-of-sept-11-de... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/uighur-men-leave-guantanamo-bay-slovakia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/uighur-men-lea... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo...

throwaway292893 5y ago
Because they were terrorists, we didn't hold 3 million of them in gitmo simply because they were ethnic minorities. Orders of magnitudes in difference. Holding a few dozen suspected terrorists !== holding 3 million people (nearly an entire race) You can justify there may be proof for those few alleged jihads. You cannot reasonably prove those 3 million people are all terrorists. Where are the cries to shut down these camps like there were cries to shut down Gitmo?
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  They were alleged terrorists. They were released after they were found to not be terrorists. Otherwise they would still be in captivity I suppose.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  China's justification for holding Uyghurs is that they are terrorists, with a similar amount of evidence provided as for Guantanamo detainees.
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    Orders of magnitude. While both strain credulity, it is more plausible to take a government at its word for 300 people than for 3 million. Plausibly it could be the case that there are 100 wrongly imprisoned people in Camp X-Ray without legal recourse... But equally plausibly there are at the very least 1,000,000 wrongly imprisoned people in the Uyghurstan concentration camps, with thousands added every day...