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Edward Snowden exposed the world’s largest surveillance state. It seems most of us are comfortable with it. The Chinese are following in our footsteps and they

Edward Snowden exposed the world’s largest surveillance state. It seems most of us are comfortable with it. The Chinese are following in our footsteps and they are about two generations away from the mass global surveillance that the NSA (and partners) conduct. Remember it was our global surveillance dragnet that made us have Nelson Mandela (and other blacks) arrested. https://www.npr.org/2016/05/16/478272695/retired-cia-agent-confirms-u-s-role-in-nelson-mandelas-1962-arrest https://www.npr.org/2016/05/16/478272695/retired-cia-agent-c... The NSA also conducted surveillance (illegally but they were not white) on homegrown black leaders (considered communists/terrorists/traitors by the white US government) like Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24279394 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24279394 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillance-anti-vietnam-muhammad-ali-mlk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillan...

daniellarusso 5y ago
I was talking to a colleague about TIA, and he was not familiar. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness Not sure if this was the inspiration for ‘Person of Interest’ tv series.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  If you want to go down the rabbit hole on the history and pervasiveness of the surveillance state, its media propaganda arms and the torture and drugging of US citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
  - cassianoleal 5y ago
    And if you want to dip your toes a little outside of "US citizens": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      The School of the Americas is pretty disgusting too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...
- QuesnayJr 5y ago
  Interesting question. Apparently the answer is yes. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-tvs-person-of-interest-helps-us-understand-the-surveillance-society-5407171/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-t...
throwaway292893 5y ago
This comment downplays the CCPs authoritarian regime. It matters what you do with the surveillance (Uighur genocide). In many ways China's tracking is much more intrusive. Noone should spy on its citizens, but at least you have trials in the West.
- sneak 5y ago
  The US imprisons its ethnic minorities in inhumane camps (where torture in the form of extended stays in the SHU is not only legal but routine, as well as the same forced sterilizations) at a rate 17x higher (per capita) than China does, FWIW. https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-sterilizing-prisoners/ https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-steril... It does matter what you do with the surveillance. Senior DEA officials say they use warrantless mass surveillance to perform parallel construction "almost daily", according to Reuters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2013... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction Trials are mostly for show, as the actual source of the evidence in these kinds of cases is completely illegal under the US constitution, and the evidence admitted and used in the sham trials is actually inadmissible under the rules of evidence ("fruit of the poison tree"). From the Reuters article above: > The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to “recreate” the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant’s Constitutional right to a fair trial.
  - throwaway292893 5y ago
    Complete FUD. Nice article full of nothing to distract though. There are millions of Uighurs in concentration camps right now, sterilized, raped, beaten. https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ I don't know if you are part of the 50 cent army, but your talking points mirror them.
    - sneak 5y ago
      It's very well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
igravious 5y ago
> Edward Snowden exposed the world’s largest surveillance state. It seems most of us are comfortable with it. The Chinese are following in our footsteps and they are about two generations away from the mass global surveillance that the NSA (and partners) conduct. It's unclear whether most of us are comfortable with it. I know that I personally feel fairly powerless and helpless and unsure as to what to do in the face of it, Regarding your statement about the Chinese following in the footsteps of the Five Eyes, wouldn't you say that is pure speculation? > Remember it was our global surveillance dragnet that made us have Nelson Mandela (and other blacks) arrested. I think it's important to maintain a distinction between the normal so-called spy-craft that led to Mandela's arrest in 1962 to which that NPR article refers and the global surveillance dragnet which Snowden brought to light. There's no suggestion in that NPR article that it was wire-tapping which provided information as to Mandela's whereabouts. > he NSA also conducted surveillance (illegally but they were not white) on homegrown black leaders (considered communists/terrorists/traitors by the white US government) like Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King: The BBC article you link to says this: “The agency eavesdropped on civil rights leaders Martin Luther King and Whitney Young as well as boxing champion Muhammad Ali, New York Times journalist Tom Wicker and Washington Post columnist Art Buchwald.” Tom Wicker and Art Buchwald are white by the looks of it – so I'm not sure why you're trying to crowbar the US's race issue into a topic which is not about race (it's about class struggle and power).
abecedarius 5y ago
> It seems most of us are comfortable with it. That doesn't quite follow. There are lots of issues where lots of people, even a supermajority, disagree with the status quo for a very long time. Motion seems to depend on it becoming a partisan or culture-war issue. If neither 'side' sees an immediate prospect of wielding an issue against the other, the problem stays a "yeah it sucks but what can you do?" kind of thing. (Yes that's compatible with many people actually being comfy with it. I'm objecting to the "most of us" part.)

daniellarusso 5y ago

I was talking to a colleague about TIA, and he was not familiar. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness Not sure if this was the inspiration for ‘Person of Interest’ tv series.

1cvmask 5y ago
If you want to go down the rabbit hole on the history and pervasiveness of the surveillance state, its media propaganda arms and the torture and drugging of US citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
- cassianoleal 5y ago
  And if you want to dip your toes a little outside of "US citizens": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    The School of the Americas is pretty disgusting too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...
QuesnayJr 5y ago
Interesting question. Apparently the answer is yes. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-tvs-person-of-interest-helps-us-understand-the-surveillance-society-5407171/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-t...

throwaway292893 5y ago

This comment downplays the CCPs authoritarian regime. It matters what you do with the surveillance (Uighur genocide). In many ways China's tracking is much more intrusive. Noone should spy on its citizens, but at least you have trials in the West.

sneak 5y ago
The US imprisons its ethnic minorities in inhumane camps (where torture in the form of extended stays in the SHU is not only legal but routine, as well as the same forced sterilizations) at a rate 17x higher (per capita) than China does, FWIW. https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-sterilizing-prisoners/ https://talkpoverty.org/2017/08/23/u-s-still-forcibly-steril... It does matter what you do with the surveillance. Senior DEA officials say they use warrantless mass surveillance to perform parallel construction "almost daily", according to Reuters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2013... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction Trials are mostly for show, as the actual source of the evidence in these kinds of cases is completely illegal under the US constitution, and the evidence admitted and used in the sham trials is actually inadmissible under the rules of evidence ("fruit of the poison tree"). From the Reuters article above: > The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to “recreate” the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant’s Constitutional right to a fair trial.
- throwaway292893 5y ago
  Complete FUD. Nice article full of nothing to distract though. There are millions of Uighurs in concentration camps right now, sterilized, raped, beaten. https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ https://www.saveuighur.org/camps/ I don't know if you are part of the 50 cent army, but your talking points mirror them.
  - sneak 5y ago
    It's very well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

igravious 5y ago

> Edward Snowden exposed the world’s largest surveillance state. It seems most of us are comfortable with it. The Chinese are following in our footsteps and they are about two generations away from the mass global surveillance that the NSA (and partners) conduct. It's unclear whether most of us are comfortable with it. I know that I personally feel fairly powerless and helpless and unsure as to what to do in the face of it, Regarding your statement about the Chinese following in the footsteps of the Five Eyes, wouldn't you say that is pure speculation? > Remember it was our global surveillance dragnet that made us have Nelson Mandela (and other blacks) arrested. I think it's important to maintain a distinction between the normal so-called spy-craft that led to Mandela's arrest in 1962 to which that NPR article refers and the global surveillance dragnet which Snowden brought to light. There's no suggestion in that NPR article that it was wire-tapping which provided information as to Mandela's whereabouts. > he NSA also conducted surveillance (illegally but they were not white) on homegrown black leaders (considered communists/terrorists/traitors by the white US government) like Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King: The BBC article you link to says this: “The agency eavesdropped on civil rights leaders Martin Luther King and Whitney Young as well as boxing champion Muhammad Ali, New York Times journalist Tom Wicker and Washington Post columnist Art Buchwald.” Tom Wicker and Art Buchwald are white by the looks of it – so I'm not sure why you're trying to crowbar the US's race issue into a topic which is not about race (it's about class struggle and power).

abecedarius 5y ago

> It seems most of us are comfortable with it. That doesn't quite follow. There are lots of issues where lots of people, even a supermajority, disagree with the status quo for a very long time. Motion seems to depend on it becoming a partisan or culture-war issue. If neither 'side' sees an immediate prospect of wielding an issue against the other, the problem stays a "yeah it sucks but what can you do?" kind of thing. (Yes that's compatible with many people actually being comfy with it. I'm objecting to the "most of us" part.)