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I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with t

I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out. Also Poland being directly next to Belarus will affect their relations.

formerly_proven 5y ago
Poland-Belarus relations are icy at best, since Belarus is a sock-puppet of Russia, while Poland is strongly aligned with the US.
- jakub_g 5y ago
  Poland has been strongly anti-Lukashenka for a long time, and since 2007 broadcasts a Belarusian-language satellite TV channel (Belsat). It's probably the only non-regime-controlled Belarusian speaking TV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV
fsloth 5y ago
Fear of Russia is the few things Hungary and Poland and rest of most of EU have in common.
- chx 5y ago
  Ever heard of Paks 2?
intricatedetail 5y ago
Sanctions are only targeted at Belarus (When it's clear they got Russian assistance). Isolation of Belarus throws them into stronger Kremlin influence and that is precisely why Poland and Hungary were allowed by Putin to vote for those "sanctions".
ceilingcorner 5y ago
Disagreeing with the EU != equivalent to an authoritarian regime. Politics is more complicated than Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.
- qsort 5y ago
  Of course, but both of them can be true at the same time. I wouldn't call either of those countries an authoritarian regime, but they've both moved several steps in that direction. Your parent said: "disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out". And that definitely happened, the EU has been saying "we're concerned about that" for a while now, and the only response has been "nah, it's fine".
- andrepd 5y ago
  Hungary is objectively an authoritarian regime because it removed separation of powers, stacked court with political appointees, closed down virtually all independent press, made state TV into a propaganda piece for Fidesz, etc. Not because it "disagrees with the EU".
  - rklaehn 5y ago
    I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries. E.g. the head of the German constitutional court has been a recent member of parliament for 12 years. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth How is that not a political appointment? And I have not yet seen any state TV which is not sympathetic to the government bureaucracy. If you are being paid by the state, you are not going to be too critical of the state. You don't see much critical of the German government in the supposedly independent German state TV, except maybe statements that restrictions of basic rights are not drastic enough... So either Germany is also an authoritarian regime, or what is happening in Hungary is not that out of the ordinary.
    - piva00 5y ago
      Are you seriously using whataboutism on Germany about Hungary's current situation? Go get more informed, please, here are some resources: [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/04/01/hungarys-authoritarian-takeover-puts-european-union-risk https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/04/01/hungarys-authoritarian-t... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2020/0409/From-democracy-to-authoritarianism-Hungary-under-Orban-audio https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2020/0409/From-democr... [3] https://djilp.org/hungarys-road-to-authoritarianism-through-the-demise-of-a-liberal-democracy-and-free-judiciary/ https://djilp.org/hungarys-road-to-authoritarianism-through-... [4] https://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/news/ten-years-viktor-orb%C3%A1n-rise-%E2%80%98soft-authoritarianism%E2%80%99 https://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/news/ten-years-viktor-or...
cygx 5y ago
Poland has been supporting the Belarusian opposition. Some rudimentary information has made it on Wikipedia, cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93Poland_relations#2020_Belarusian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93Poland_relatio...
- szatkus 5y ago
  Dont forget that most of the protesters were actually hired by Polish government /s
xiphias2 5y ago
Orban just privatized all universities and preparing to privatize all available houses (robbed 10s of billions of dollars from the public), and people are really pissed even though they are still afraid to go on the streets. Orban went too far, and now he started to play a bit nicer.
nathell 5y ago
Poland is directly affected, as the FR4978 with Pratasievič on board was a SP-RSM belonging to Ryanair Sun and registered in Poland.
- FinanceAnon 5y ago
  Yes, and Pratasievič was granted political asylum in Poland.
  - FinanceAnon 5y ago
    Actually, this information is wrong, sorry. His status is unclear to me and various sources report different things on this.
mciancia 5y ago
It was Polish plane that was kidnapped (still Ryanair but registered in Poland) which also doesn't help ;)
yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
It appears you have subscribed to overly-simplistic tribal political rhetoric regarding Poland and Hungary, which is far from constructive.
melomal 5y ago
PiS right now needs some wins. They have consistently screwed up and their avid fans are even sick of it.
chx 5y ago
> I am surprised Hungary agreed. To quote the Economist, > If Mr Orban ever does hit an obstacle, he surrenders some gains, while keeping the bulk of them. (The Hungarian leader even has a name for this legal waltz: the peacock dance.) Orbán have vetoed a number of EU resolutions recently, most importantly one condemning China over Hong Kong. He probably coordinated with Mr Putin and they agreed Lukashenko can be fed to the dogs for all they care and so Orbán now loses Lukashenko but keeps Russia and China. Putin plays the game well too: he quite probably approved of Lukashenko doing this, expecting a backlash against Belarus for it but not against Russia, so truly what does he care really? Belarus is an ally for now but meh. If he would've vetoed Lukashenko's batshit crazy idea it would've strained the relationship so why would he? It's not like EU sanctions will immediately topple Lukashenko.
- whizzter 5y ago
  On the contrary Putin probably cheered him on knowing that some outcome like this was likely. Apparently Lukashenko has been playing a bit of chicken with Putin at times saying "Maybe I should be friendly with the EU instead?", now they both know that Luk is in Putins hands without even needing to say a single word.
FinanceAnon 5y ago
Just because a country has an authoritarian government, doesn't mean it supports other authoritarian governments.
- nomercy400 5y ago
  Isn't blaming a government for being authoritarian whilst being authoritarian alike shooting yourself in the foot?
  - FinanceAnon 5y ago
    Kind of. But if you own state media you can portray yourself as a "glorious leader", while others as "dangerous dictators".
axiosgunnar 5y ago
Yes, Poland is such an unfree country that the journalist that Belarus arrested had willingly applied for (and received) asylum status in Poland.
- ddddq 5y ago
  I don't get how people still put Poland (and Hungary) on the same level with Belarus or China. Both are democratic nations with just a right wing leadership and political system. And european right wing is more left wing than the Democrats in the US in many social policies. Poland isn't Northkorea or China, despite how the media likes to portray them so. They are way more democratic than the last Trump administration, even if that doesn't mean much to be honest.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Poland, and Hungary even worse, are trending authoritarian/undemocratic. There is still a very long way to go before they even begin to approach totalitarian dictatorships like Belarus or China (or even Russia). But to me Poland and Hungary are more immediately worrying because they are EU countries and they only very recently took a turn for less independent courts, less free media and so on. There is still time to change course there, while in Belarus there isn't.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    Alliance of Democracies Foundation's yearly Democracy Perception Index from 2021[0] had 77% Chinese people seeing their country as having "just the right amount of democracy"[1], which is the exact same percentage as they found in Denmark so it really isn't as simple as that. It also isn't about Right Vs. Left because on a simple left-right axis the US is located further to the right than Saudi Arabia and Hitler[2] and however you see US politics it isn't comparable to Nazism. You need to include more than just left right to get a reasonably useable result. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with your point of view here just saying that when "just the right amount of democracy" can differ so much that #7 on Most democratic countries in the world[3] and #157 on the list agree they have the right amount of democracy then it isn't a surprise that countries that might differ a lot are seen as comparable by some and not others. 0: https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/initiatives/the-copenhagen-democracy-summit/dpi-2021/ https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/initiatives/the-copenh... 1: Alliance of Democracies Foundation is chaired by former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. This isn't just some cranks rating China based on scared citizens not daring to say otherwise. 2: Obama is pretty close to Hitler on a left-right-only axis but Trump, Bush, etc. are far to the right of Hitler. It is a broken comparison outside of local politics. 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
alkonaut 5y ago
Hungary, yes. Poland I think is less surprising. It's been mostly Hungary that has had the reservations recently about other countries' inner affairs recently.
shp0ngle 5y ago
Poland is nationalistic and Catholic, but also very anti-Russian. They are not friends with Lukashenko and Putin. Hungary is kind of Putin's friend, yeah.

formerly_proven 5y ago

Poland-Belarus relations are icy at best, since Belarus is a sock-puppet of Russia, while Poland is strongly aligned with the US.

jakub_g 5y ago
Poland has been strongly anti-Lukashenka for a long time, and since 2007 broadcasts a Belarusian-language satellite TV channel (Belsat). It's probably the only non-regime-controlled Belarusian speaking TV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV

fsloth 5y ago

Fear of Russia is the few things Hungary and Poland and rest of most of EU have in common.

chx 5y ago
Ever heard of Paks 2?

intricatedetail 5y ago

Sanctions are only targeted at Belarus (When it's clear they got Russian assistance). Isolation of Belarus throws them into stronger Kremlin influence and that is precisely why Poland and Hungary were allowed by Putin to vote for those "sanctions".

ceilingcorner 5y ago

Disagreeing with the EU != equivalent to an authoritarian regime. Politics is more complicated than Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.

qsort 5y ago
Of course, but both of them can be true at the same time. I wouldn't call either of those countries an authoritarian regime, but they've both moved several steps in that direction. Your parent said: "disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out". And that definitely happened, the EU has been saying "we're concerned about that" for a while now, and the only response has been "nah, it's fine".
andrepd 5y ago
Hungary is objectively an authoritarian regime because it removed separation of powers, stacked court with political appointees, closed down virtually all independent press, made state TV into a propaganda piece for Fidesz, etc. Not because it "disagrees with the EU".
- rklaehn 5y ago
  I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries. E.g. the head of the German constitutional court has been a recent member of parliament for 12 years. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth How is that not a political appointment? And I have not yet seen any state TV which is not sympathetic to the government bureaucracy. If you are being paid by the state, you are not going to be too critical of the state. You don't see much critical of the German government in the supposedly independent German state TV, except maybe statements that restrictions of basic rights are not drastic enough... So either Germany is also an authoritarian regime, or what is happening in Hungary is not that out of the ordinary.
  - piva00 5y ago
    Are you seriously using whataboutism on Germany about Hungary's current situation? Go get more informed, please, here are some resources: [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/04/01/hungarys-authoritarian-takeover-puts-european-union-risk https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/04/01/hungarys-authoritarian-t... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2020/0409/From-democracy-to-authoritarianism-Hungary-under-Orban-audio https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2020/0409/From-democr... [3] https://djilp.org/hungarys-road-to-authoritarianism-through-the-demise-of-a-liberal-democracy-and-free-judiciary/ https://djilp.org/hungarys-road-to-authoritarianism-through-... [4] https://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/news/ten-years-viktor-orb%C3%A1n-rise-%E2%80%98soft-authoritarianism%E2%80%99 https://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/news/ten-years-viktor-or...

cygx 5y ago

Poland has been supporting the Belarusian opposition. Some rudimentary information has made it on Wikipedia, cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93Poland_relations#2020_Belarusian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93Poland_relatio...

szatkus 5y ago
Dont forget that most of the protesters were actually hired by Polish government /s

xiphias2 5y ago

Orban just privatized all universities and preparing to privatize all available houses (robbed 10s of billions of dollars from the public), and people are really pissed even though they are still afraid to go on the streets. Orban went too far, and now he started to play a bit nicer.

nathell 5y ago

Poland is directly affected, as the FR4978 with Pratasievič on board was a SP-RSM belonging to Ryanair Sun and registered in Poland.

FinanceAnon 5y ago
Yes, and Pratasievič was granted political asylum in Poland.
- FinanceAnon 5y ago
  Actually, this information is wrong, sorry. His status is unclear to me and various sources report different things on this.

mciancia 5y ago

It was Polish plane that was kidnapped (still Ryanair but registered in Poland) which also doesn't help ;)

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago

It appears you have subscribed to overly-simplistic tribal political rhetoric regarding Poland and Hungary, which is far from constructive.

melomal 5y ago

PiS right now needs some wins. They have consistently screwed up and their avid fans are even sick of it.

chx 5y ago

> I am surprised Hungary agreed. To quote the Economist, > If Mr Orban ever does hit an obstacle, he surrenders some gains, while keeping the bulk of them. (The Hungarian leader even has a name for this legal waltz: the peacock dance.) Orbán have vetoed a number of EU resolutions recently, most importantly one condemning China over Hong Kong. He probably coordinated with Mr Putin and they agreed Lukashenko can be fed to the dogs for all they care and so Orbán now loses Lukashenko but keeps Russia and China. Putin plays the game well too: he quite probably approved of Lukashenko doing this, expecting a backlash against Belarus for it but not against Russia, so truly what does he care really? Belarus is an ally for now but meh. If he would've vetoed Lukashenko's batshit crazy idea it would've strained the relationship so why would he? It's not like EU sanctions will immediately topple Lukashenko.

whizzter 5y ago
On the contrary Putin probably cheered him on knowing that some outcome like this was likely. Apparently Lukashenko has been playing a bit of chicken with Putin at times saying "Maybe I should be friendly with the EU instead?", now they both know that Luk is in Putins hands without even needing to say a single word.

FinanceAnon 5y ago

Just because a country has an authoritarian government, doesn't mean it supports other authoritarian governments.

nomercy400 5y ago
Isn't blaming a government for being authoritarian whilst being authoritarian alike shooting yourself in the foot?
- FinanceAnon 5y ago
  Kind of. But if you own state media you can portray yourself as a "glorious leader", while others as "dangerous dictators".

axiosgunnar 5y ago

Yes, Poland is such an unfree country that the journalist that Belarus arrested had willingly applied for (and received) asylum status in Poland.

ddddq 5y ago
I don't get how people still put Poland (and Hungary) on the same level with Belarus or China. Both are democratic nations with just a right wing leadership and political system. And european right wing is more left wing than the Democrats in the US in many social policies. Poland isn't Northkorea or China, despite how the media likes to portray them so. They are way more democratic than the last Trump administration, even if that doesn't mean much to be honest.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Poland, and Hungary even worse, are trending authoritarian/undemocratic. There is still a very long way to go before they even begin to approach totalitarian dictatorships like Belarus or China (or even Russia). But to me Poland and Hungary are more immediately worrying because they are EU countries and they only very recently took a turn for less independent courts, less free media and so on. There is still time to change course there, while in Belarus there isn't.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Alliance of Democracies Foundation's yearly Democracy Perception Index from 2021[0] had 77% Chinese people seeing their country as having "just the right amount of democracy"[1], which is the exact same percentage as they found in Denmark so it really isn't as simple as that. It also isn't about Right Vs. Left because on a simple left-right axis the US is located further to the right than Saudi Arabia and Hitler[2] and however you see US politics it isn't comparable to Nazism. You need to include more than just left right to get a reasonably useable result. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with your point of view here just saying that when "just the right amount of democracy" can differ so much that #7 on Most democratic countries in the world[3] and #157 on the list agree they have the right amount of democracy then it isn't a surprise that countries that might differ a lot are seen as comparable by some and not others. 0: https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/initiatives/the-copenhagen-democracy-summit/dpi-2021/ https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/initiatives/the-copenh... 1: Alliance of Democracies Foundation is chaired by former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. This isn't just some cranks rating China based on scared citizens not daring to say otherwise. 2: Obama is pretty close to Hitler on a left-right-only axis but Trump, Bush, etc. are far to the right of Hitler. It is a broken comparison outside of local politics. 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

alkonaut 5y ago

Hungary, yes. Poland I think is less surprising. It's been mostly Hungary that has had the reservations recently about other countries' inner affairs recently.

shp0ngle 5y ago

Poland is nationalistic and Catholic, but also very anti-Russian. They are not friends with Lukashenko and Putin. Hungary is kind of Putin's friend, yeah.