4 ms·

Don't forget that Lodash was basically JDalton's rip of Underscore.js. There used to be a mention of it, since the selling point was benchmarks. Now, I don't se

Don't forget that Lodash was basically JDalton's rip of Underscore.js. There used to be a mention of it, since the selling point was benchmarks. Now, I don't see any mention of Underscore...

capableweb 5y ago
Not sure I'd call it a "rip", "ripping" for me is associated with "ripping media" which is copying video/music/data from CDs to local hardware. Lodash is more of a re-implementation of a MIT library, not something that should be shameful. As I remember it, Lodash biggest difference was its modular approach also, not all about performance. Lodash also addressed some inconsistencies in Underscore.js.
- dorian-graph 5y ago
  > "ripping" for me is associated with "ripping media" which is copying video/music/data from CDs to local hardware For many others, the OP's use is common and correct—in a lot of areas. "They ripped me off" is very prevalent in English speaking countries too, outside of tech.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Yeah, that's my understanding as well, from "ripped me off", implying stealing or something negative. Having the (almost) same API surface as another MIT library is hardly a "ripoff" but a re-implementation. Edit: since new evidence has come forward (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27275379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27275379) I think we can all agree that Lodash is a fork of Underscore.js, nothing more and nothing else.
- goldenkey 5y ago
  Allowed or legal doesn't imply couth. As far as I can tell, Lodash no longer mentions Underscore anywhere. This seems wrong..as if one wants to look more original than one actually is. I have no qualms with forks or reimplementations (ie. Android - Java.) I actively support the paradigm. But in this case, it's pretty shitty to try to erase all evidence of said inspiration. Most forks and reimplementations don't do that. They pay homage to their origin with at least a shout out.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    I don't think Lodash ever "credited" Underscore.js for it's origin. Lodash used to have a "compat" version that promised to work the same as Underscore.js but with better performance, but I think that's about it. After some digging, it seems like the Lodash website stopped mentioning Underscore.js around 2015 sometime, but even before that, it never had "evidence of said inspiration" as claimed by you. Here are the versions I looked at: - https://web.archive.org/web/20120826202523/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20120826202523/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20130502014523/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130502014523/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20140517192947/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140517192947/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20150513014815/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150513014815/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20160803063412/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160803063412/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20170830163720/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170830163720/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20180703043557/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180703043557/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20190803030353/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190803030353/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20200615092636/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200615092636/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20210314233141/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210314233141/https://lodash.co...
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      Good digging. The 2012 banner is > A drop-in replacement\* for Underscore.js I'd consider this to be an admission of where the API came from. You are right though, my memory failed me. No mention of forking.. Shameless!
- theta_d 5y ago
  Rip short for rip off which can mean a clone essentially.
- cowsandmilk 5y ago
  Really, lodash was a fork of underscore, not a reimplementation. The git history shows it. https://github.com/lodash/lodash/commits/0.1.0?after=e0971cd02cde517b4be70cf7ec3b198a98cdb608+34&branch=0.1.0 https://github.com/lodash/lodash/commits/0.1.0?after=e0971cd...
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Perfect, even better! Now we can all correct ourselves and call it a fork, which sounds much nicer than "rip", "ripoff" or "clone".
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      Most forks mention their origins somewhere in their bio. I'd still call it a rip considering no credit is being given at all. Why should I need to dig into the Git history to find out the creative origin of Lodash?
      - capableweb 5y ago
        > Most forks mention their origins somewhere in their bio Ok, does that make forks who don't mention where they forked from rips? Huge leap in logic. > Why should I need to dig into the Git history to find out the creative origin of Lodash? Well, if you're interested in the origin you either look for information available in threads like this, where other people dig or you dig yourself. Not sure what the problem is. Someone published a library under MIT, another person forked that library and created a new one, also under MIT, and somehow the fork is now a rip? Give me a break
      - Karunamon 5y ago
        The license file reads: Based on Underscore.js, copyright Jeremy Ashkenas, DocumentCloud and Investigative Reporters & Editors <http://underscorejs.org/ http://underscorejs.org/> If they were giving "no credit at all", they would be in violation of the MIT license.
    - design-material 5y ago
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  "Rip-Off Menu" is another term of art for "Tear-Off Menu". ;) Inside Macintosh > Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines > Part 2 - The Interface Elements > Chapter 4 - Menus > Tear-Off Menus and Palettes http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-94.html http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/doc... http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-95.html http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/doc... >A tear-off menu allows users to move a menu around the screen like a window. Tear-off menus save desktop space because the user can place them on top of a document or move them to a convenient position. If you implement a tear-off menu rather than a fixed palette in a window, you allow the user to have a larger workspace in document windows. Users can also choose to leave the menu in the menu bar, or tear it off and close it when necessary. Tear-off menus give the user more flexibility than fixed palettes do.
hinkley 5y ago
How is underscore these days? Lodash as an npm module is out of control, file-size wise, and I'm not sure I'm really getting anything for it, other than once a year having to make sure we don't have ten copies of it that can't be deduped (Currently it's occupying 29MB of disk space on my production machines)

Don't forget that Lodash was basically JDalton's rip of Underscore.js. There used to be a mention of it, since the selling point was benchmarks. Now, I don't see any mention of Underscore...

capableweb 5y ago

Not sure I'd call it a "rip", "ripping" for me is associated with "ripping media" which is copying video/music/data from CDs to local hardware. Lodash is more of a re-implementation of a MIT library, not something that should be shameful. As I remember it, Lodash biggest difference was its modular approach also, not all about performance. Lodash also addressed some inconsistencies in Underscore.js.

dorian-graph 5y ago
> "ripping" for me is associated with "ripping media" which is copying video/music/data from CDs to local hardware For many others, the OP's use is common and correct—in a lot of areas. "They ripped me off" is very prevalent in English speaking countries too, outside of tech.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Yeah, that's my understanding as well, from "ripped me off", implying stealing or something negative. Having the (almost) same API surface as another MIT library is hardly a "ripoff" but a re-implementation. Edit: since new evidence has come forward (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27275379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27275379) I think we can all agree that Lodash is a fork of Underscore.js, nothing more and nothing else.
goldenkey 5y ago
Allowed or legal doesn't imply couth. As far as I can tell, Lodash no longer mentions Underscore anywhere. This seems wrong..as if one wants to look more original than one actually is. I have no qualms with forks or reimplementations (ie. Android - Java.) I actively support the paradigm. But in this case, it's pretty shitty to try to erase all evidence of said inspiration. Most forks and reimplementations don't do that. They pay homage to their origin with at least a shout out.
- capableweb 5y ago
  I don't think Lodash ever "credited" Underscore.js for it's origin. Lodash used to have a "compat" version that promised to work the same as Underscore.js but with better performance, but I think that's about it. After some digging, it seems like the Lodash website stopped mentioning Underscore.js around 2015 sometime, but even before that, it never had "evidence of said inspiration" as claimed by you. Here are the versions I looked at: - https://web.archive.org/web/20120826202523/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20120826202523/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20130502014523/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130502014523/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20140517192947/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140517192947/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20150513014815/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150513014815/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20160803063412/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160803063412/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20170830163720/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170830163720/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20180703043557/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180703043557/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20190803030353/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190803030353/https://lodash.co... - https://web.archive.org/web/20200615092636/http://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200615092636/http://lodash.com... - https://web.archive.org/web/20210314233141/https://lodash.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210314233141/https://lodash.co...
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    Good digging. The 2012 banner is > A drop-in replacement\* for Underscore.js I'd consider this to be an admission of where the API came from. You are right though, my memory failed me. No mention of forking.. Shameless!
theta_d 5y ago
Rip short for rip off which can mean a clone essentially.
cowsandmilk 5y ago
Really, lodash was a fork of underscore, not a reimplementation. The git history shows it. https://github.com/lodash/lodash/commits/0.1.0?after=e0971cd02cde517b4be70cf7ec3b198a98cdb608+34&branch=0.1.0 https://github.com/lodash/lodash/commits/0.1.0?after=e0971cd...
- capableweb 5y ago
  Perfect, even better! Now we can all correct ourselves and call it a fork, which sounds much nicer than "rip", "ripoff" or "clone".
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    Most forks mention their origins somewhere in their bio. I'd still call it a rip considering no credit is being given at all. Why should I need to dig into the Git history to find out the creative origin of Lodash?
    - capableweb 5y ago
      > Most forks mention their origins somewhere in their bio Ok, does that make forks who don't mention where they forked from rips? Huge leap in logic. > Why should I need to dig into the Git history to find out the creative origin of Lodash? Well, if you're interested in the origin you either look for information available in threads like this, where other people dig or you dig yourself. Not sure what the problem is. Someone published a library under MIT, another person forked that library and created a new one, also under MIT, and somehow the fork is now a rip? Give me a break
    - Karunamon 5y ago
      The license file reads: Based on Underscore.js, copyright Jeremy Ashkenas, DocumentCloud and Investigative Reporters & Editors <http://underscorejs.org/ http://underscorejs.org/> If they were giving "no credit at all", they would be in violation of the MIT license.
  - design-material 5y ago
DonHopkins 5y ago
"Rip-Off Menu" is another term of art for "Tear-Off Menu". ;) Inside Macintosh > Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines > Part 2 - The Interface Elements > Chapter 4 - Menus > Tear-Off Menus and Palettes http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-94.html http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/doc... http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-95.html http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/doc... >A tear-off menu allows users to move a menu around the screen like a window. Tear-off menus save desktop space because the user can place them on top of a document or move them to a convenient position. If you implement a tear-off menu rather than a fixed palette in a window, you allow the user to have a larger workspace in document windows. Users can also choose to leave the menu in the menu bar, or tear it off and close it when necessary. Tear-off menus give the user more flexibility than fixed palettes do.

hinkley 5y ago

How is underscore these days? Lodash as an npm module is out of control, file-size wise, and I'm not sure I'm really getting anything for it, other than once a year having to make sure we don't have ten copies of it that can't be deduped (Currently it's occupying 29MB of disk space on my production machines)