7 ms·

I really like free entry to public things. Like the museums in the UK. Not so much for the savings, but the reduced friction is nice, makes one feel more welcom

I really like free entry to public things. Like the museums in the UK. Not so much for the savings, but the reduced friction is nice, makes one feel more welcome. I remember Los Alamos in the US having free buses, that was also quite nice. I would like there to be a funding scheme for most public services similar to the UK student loan system. Where you pay out of your own pocket, ultimately, but only as a fraction of your income and above a certain very livable minimum, and only for the services that you personally use.

martpie 5y ago
In terms of reduced friction, I'm a big fan of the swiss transport system: you can hop in any bus or train without validating your ticket anywhere, and you get controlled from time to time. And the fine are big. So you get: - not much friction (+ the app is great) - you use transports more -> you pay more (and not everyone) - fraud is low because the fines are big enough to dissuade people, and increase every time you get caught
- patates 5y ago
  Germany has the same. I once had to pay a 80 euro fine because the driver opened just the middle door at the bus stop as he had nearly skipped the stop, and I hopped in without thinking, and the ticket controlled who stopped me (as I was going to the front to get a ticket) argued that I had to enter from the front door if I didn't already have a ticket. Still infuriates me when I think about it. This is just an anecdote, of course. I don't actually disagree with you.
  - Entalpi 5y ago
    In Sweden the fine is 120€..
    - patates 5y ago
      This was 8 years ago, not sure how much it is these days. It could as well be 1 euro, I'd still be very angry, as it's not about the money.
  - admissionsguy 5y ago
    In Vienna, the airport is situated in such a way with respect to the ticketing zones as to trick visitors into not getting the right ticket. I don't remember the details, unfortunately, but judging by extremely unusual frequency of checks on that route, it appears intentionally set up that way to extract fines from tourists. Just see the first results at https://www.google.com/search?q=vienna+airport+transport+fine+reddit https://www.google.com/search?q=vienna+airport+transport+fin...
    - csunbird 5y ago
      Same in Berlin as well, the Schonefeld/BER airport is just outside of A+B zone, which requires a more expensive ticket.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        I doubt this is specifically to "trick" visitors, but to gain revenue to pay for the cost of the line to the airport — which is otherwise not especially popular.
      - majewsky 5y ago
        A+B correspond to the city limits of Berlin, and BER is outside of the city limits. I'm not saying that this is set in stone. They could probably include BER in B if they wanted, but the most benign explanation is that it just started out this way because of how the fare zones were defined, and now they keep it that way because few companies hate extra revenue.
    - bullianbp 5y ago
      In some parts of Southern Europe, a bemused looking tourist who offered even the mildest defense that they didn't understand the zoning system would be surrounded by locals taking their side and rebuking the official. "Why are you doing this to them? They have a ticket!" "Let them go, they are just trying to get to the city!" "Don't pay it! He is a thief! All the train company people are thieves!" At the central station in Amsterdam, there are ticket machines with a screenful of zones, prices and destinations in Dutch, and a single large friendly button "I want to go to Schipol Airport".
  - bullianbp 5y ago
    80 euro might be a reasonable price for having grasped an important truth about how Germany works.
    - bullianbp 5y ago
      I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany. If you have the wrong ticket, it doesn't matter that you tried to buy the right ticket and were sold the wrong ticket. It's your responsibility to have the right ticket, regardless of the actions of others, even other employees of the same organization. If you didn't know the rules, that's your problem, even if the rules are hard to understand. In Italy, I have seen the 'good faith' defense taken to extremes. "If you didn't want me to do (this clearly illegal and unapproved thing), why did (some other person in any official capacity) do (this very benign and pro-social thing which could be tortuously misinterpreted as an endorsement of the first thing)??" In Germany this doesn't exist. In some cases like the middle door of the bus, it will almost seem like entrapment. (The correct behavior would have been to go to the front door of the bus and require the driver to open it.) In many cases, it is only a pain to those who don't understand the system. Often, it is fairer since 'let this one slide officer' leads to discrimination by the officer.
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        >I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany. It's thought that Franklin Roosevelt's view of Germany and Germans' nature was affected by his being, as a young visitor, arrested four times in one day in the Black Forest (https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt/page/170/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt/page/170/...).
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  A big change in the Netherlands in the past decade or so has been the introduction of a chip / card based checkin, instead of tickets or whatever. They were able to effectively seal off train and tram stations everywhere unless you had a valid ticket, changing the whole system from "you need a ticket to get on board" to "you need a ticket to go onto the station". It's improved safety by a lot as well - less belligerent travelers without a ticket getting aggressive when their ticket is validated.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    What are "tram stations"? In Poland, most tram stops are not isolated from streets, and look like that: https://www.transport-publiczny.pl/img/20170721121933StareMiastowiedenski1.JPG_678-443.jpg https://www.transport-publiczny.pl/img/20170721121933StareMi... https://www.ztm.poznan.pl/assets/Uploads/Przystanek-tramwajowy-Ratajczaka-na-ul.-Swiety-Marcin.jpg https://www.ztm.poznan.pl/assets/Uploads/Przystanek-tramwajo... Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams.
    - iso1631 5y ago
      I can't think of anything like a tram station in Amsterdam, at least for most stops (maybe Centraal?). Some cities have raised tram platforms - Manchester UK and Stuttgart DE come to mind. Not sure if you need a ticket to be on them, doesn't make sense as the ticket machine is on the platform.
    - webmaven 5y ago
      > Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams. The bus rapid transit system in Curitiba Brazil uses enclosed stops: http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2026474_2026675_2069055,00.html http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,288...
- Leherenn 5y ago
  It only increases if you don't pay the 100 CHF fine on the spot. If you do, they don't take your details.
lmm 5y ago
> I would like there to be a funding scheme for most public services similar to the UK student loan system. Where you pay out of your own pocket, ultimately, but only as a fraction of your income and above a certain very livable minimum, and only for the services that you personally use. If you do that you disincentivise the rich (who tend to also be the powerful) from using those services, and encourage a two-tier system. The British public commits to the NHS or museums because rich and poor alike can use them without fear of one day being charged; furthermore the benefits are shared by everyone even if they aren't direct users (and this is especially true for public transit, which frees up space for others, and increases the labour supply in the cities, pushing down the prices of everything). Funding from general taxation that's paid by everyone is far better than charging individual users (the flip side is that benefits should not be means-tested, for the same reasons).
- admissionsguy 5y ago
  > If you do that you disincentivise the rich (who tend to also be the powerful) from using those services, and encourage a two-tier system. The total payment would be capped at the actual cost (slightly above to cover for those who earn below the minimum), like the student loan. That would mitigate the issue somewhat, although admittedly not entirely. The issue with general taxation is that it leaves so many people feeling disenfranchised and apathetic with regards to their taxes due to no real idea or impact on where their money goes. It also incentivises inefficiency.
  - lmm 5y ago
    > The total payment would be capped at the actual cost (slightly above to cover for those who earn below the minimum), like the student loan. That would mitigate the issue somewhat, although admittedly not entirely. If you charge more than the actual cost, why would anyone in the chargeable bracket not pursue a private alternative? > The issue with general taxation is that it leaves so many people feeling disenfranchised and apathetic with regards to their taxes due to no real idea or impact on where their money goes. It also incentivises inefficiency. Society is complex and barely understood, it's best to be honest with ourselves about that. I don't think "incentivises inefficiency" is true; an agency that charges users is encouraged to maximise its number of users, maybe, but that's not going to be a good proxy for the public good - for many agencies the goal should be making sure users never need that agency again.

martpie 5y ago

In terms of reduced friction, I'm a big fan of the swiss transport system: you can hop in any bus or train without validating your ticket anywhere, and you get controlled from time to time. And the fine are big. So you get: - not much friction (+ the app is great) - you use transports more -> you pay more (and not everyone) - fraud is low because the fines are big enough to dissuade people, and increase every time you get caught

patates 5y ago
Germany has the same. I once had to pay a 80 euro fine because the driver opened just the middle door at the bus stop as he had nearly skipped the stop, and I hopped in without thinking, and the ticket controlled who stopped me (as I was going to the front to get a ticket) argued that I had to enter from the front door if I didn't already have a ticket. Still infuriates me when I think about it. This is just an anecdote, of course. I don't actually disagree with you.
- Entalpi 5y ago
  In Sweden the fine is 120€..
  - patates 5y ago
    This was 8 years ago, not sure how much it is these days. It could as well be 1 euro, I'd still be very angry, as it's not about the money.
- admissionsguy 5y ago
  In Vienna, the airport is situated in such a way with respect to the ticketing zones as to trick visitors into not getting the right ticket. I don't remember the details, unfortunately, but judging by extremely unusual frequency of checks on that route, it appears intentionally set up that way to extract fines from tourists. Just see the first results at https://www.google.com/search?q=vienna+airport+transport+fine+reddit https://www.google.com/search?q=vienna+airport+transport+fin...
  - csunbird 5y ago
    Same in Berlin as well, the Schonefeld/BER airport is just outside of A+B zone, which requires a more expensive ticket.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      I doubt this is specifically to "trick" visitors, but to gain revenue to pay for the cost of the line to the airport — which is otherwise not especially popular.
    - majewsky 5y ago
      A+B correspond to the city limits of Berlin, and BER is outside of the city limits. I'm not saying that this is set in stone. They could probably include BER in B if they wanted, but the most benign explanation is that it just started out this way because of how the fare zones were defined, and now they keep it that way because few companies hate extra revenue.
  - bullianbp 5y ago
    In some parts of Southern Europe, a bemused looking tourist who offered even the mildest defense that they didn't understand the zoning system would be surrounded by locals taking their side and rebuking the official. "Why are you doing this to them? They have a ticket!" "Let them go, they are just trying to get to the city!" "Don't pay it! He is a thief! All the train company people are thieves!" At the central station in Amsterdam, there are ticket machines with a screenful of zones, prices and destinations in Dutch, and a single large friendly button "I want to go to Schipol Airport".
- bullianbp 5y ago
  80 euro might be a reasonable price for having grasped an important truth about how Germany works.
  - bullianbp 5y ago
    I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany. If you have the wrong ticket, it doesn't matter that you tried to buy the right ticket and were sold the wrong ticket. It's your responsibility to have the right ticket, regardless of the actions of others, even other employees of the same organization. If you didn't know the rules, that's your problem, even if the rules are hard to understand. In Italy, I have seen the 'good faith' defense taken to extremes. "If you didn't want me to do (this clearly illegal and unapproved thing), why did (some other person in any official capacity) do (this very benign and pro-social thing which could be tortuously misinterpreted as an endorsement of the first thing)??" In Germany this doesn't exist. In some cases like the middle door of the bus, it will almost seem like entrapment. (The correct behavior would have been to go to the front door of the bus and require the driver to open it.) In many cases, it is only a pain to those who don't understand the system. Often, it is fairer since 'let this one slide officer' leads to discrimination by the officer.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      >I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany. It's thought that Franklin Roosevelt's view of Germany and Germans' nature was affected by his being, as a young visitor, arrested four times in one day in the Black Forest (https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt/page/170/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt/page/170/...).
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
A big change in the Netherlands in the past decade or so has been the introduction of a chip / card based checkin, instead of tickets or whatever. They were able to effectively seal off train and tram stations everywhere unless you had a valid ticket, changing the whole system from "you need a ticket to get on board" to "you need a ticket to go onto the station". It's improved safety by a lot as well - less belligerent travelers without a ticket getting aggressive when their ticket is validated.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  What are "tram stations"? In Poland, most tram stops are not isolated from streets, and look like that: https://www.transport-publiczny.pl/img/20170721121933StareMiastowiedenski1.JPG_678-443.jpg https://www.transport-publiczny.pl/img/20170721121933StareMi... https://www.ztm.poznan.pl/assets/Uploads/Przystanek-tramwajowy-Ratajczaka-na-ul.-Swiety-Marcin.jpg https://www.ztm.poznan.pl/assets/Uploads/Przystanek-tramwajo... Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    I can't think of anything like a tram station in Amsterdam, at least for most stops (maybe Centraal?). Some cities have raised tram platforms - Manchester UK and Stuttgart DE come to mind. Not sure if you need a ticket to be on them, doesn't make sense as the ticket machine is on the platform.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    > Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams. The bus rapid transit system in Curitiba Brazil uses enclosed stops: http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2026474_2026675_2069055,00.html http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,288...
Leherenn 5y ago
It only increases if you don't pay the 100 CHF fine on the spot. If you do, they don't take your details.

lmm 5y ago

> I would like there to be a funding scheme for most public services similar to the UK student loan system. Where you pay out of your own pocket, ultimately, but only as a fraction of your income and above a certain very livable minimum, and only for the services that you personally use. If you do that you disincentivise the rich (who tend to also be the powerful) from using those services, and encourage a two-tier system. The British public commits to the NHS or museums because rich and poor alike can use them without fear of one day being charged; furthermore the benefits are shared by everyone even if they aren't direct users (and this is especially true for public transit, which frees up space for others, and increases the labour supply in the cities, pushing down the prices of everything). Funding from general taxation that's paid by everyone is far better than charging individual users (the flip side is that benefits should not be means-tested, for the same reasons).

admissionsguy 5y ago
> If you do that you disincentivise the rich (who tend to also be the powerful) from using those services, and encourage a two-tier system. The total payment would be capped at the actual cost (slightly above to cover for those who earn below the minimum), like the student loan. That would mitigate the issue somewhat, although admittedly not entirely. The issue with general taxation is that it leaves so many people feeling disenfranchised and apathetic with regards to their taxes due to no real idea or impact on where their money goes. It also incentivises inefficiency.
- lmm 5y ago
  > The total payment would be capped at the actual cost (slightly above to cover for those who earn below the minimum), like the student loan. That would mitigate the issue somewhat, although admittedly not entirely. If you charge more than the actual cost, why would anyone in the chargeable bracket not pursue a private alternative? > The issue with general taxation is that it leaves so many people feeling disenfranchised and apathetic with regards to their taxes due to no real idea or impact on where their money goes. It also incentivises inefficiency. Society is complex and barely understood, it's best to be honest with ourselves about that. I don't think "incentivises inefficiency" is true; an agency that charges users is encouraged to maximise its number of users, maybe, but that's not going to be a good proxy for the public good - for many agencies the goal should be making sure users never need that agency again.