5 ms·

Is anybody else getting tired of the constant stream of inflammatory posts ragging on San Francisco or the Bay Area? I feel like I've been seeing one every one

Is anybody else getting tired of the constant stream of inflammatory posts ragging on San Francisco or the Bay Area? I feel like I've been seeing one every one or two days that make it to the top of HN. These types of posts just seem to fit into this ongoing narrative that SF (and relatedly, silicon valley), are all falling apart due to poor governance. It's beginning to feel like a strong echo chamber in here. What really irks me though is on this and the recent post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27241085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27241085 the associated comments and discussion don't really seem to have any real substance to them, and seem to revolve around one side saying "I visited and it is horrible!!!" vs the other side saying "I visited and it isn't horrible!!!". This type of pure anecdotal arguing irks me because I really do love Hackernews as a source of interesting and rational discussion, and keeping ourselves to that standard would be super amazing, especially with complex topics like this one. Homelessness and crime in SF are not single cause topics, (it's not just bad governance that causes them) and the tech exodus does not mean the city is dying.

jollybean 5y ago
Well when police end up killing someone, it's usually anecdotal now isn't it? If the anecdote is representative of some kind of trend, then it's worth examining because the 'visceral reality' of these crimes are better understood. Having 7K in camera gear robbed in broad daylight by rando's in a Honda gives us a hint of understanding of what's happening. Aside from the 'Justice System changes' and COVID, we may very well be entering a kind of new phase in social culture. The thought of such a thing happening many decades ago, before massive increase in crime in the 1960's would have shocked people. They had different kinds of 'bad things' then. This kind of brazen crime should be very, very rare in regular, civilized places.
tayo42 5y ago
Yeah its tiring to see the negativity. Ill share my thought that's likely to attract some negative attention... I think it's interesting this shows up a lot on tech discussion site. I see it here, I see similar sentiments on reddit too. Some of it I'm willing to bet is based in insecurity. Sf and the bay area is where a lot of the best work, hardest to get jobs are, prestigious companies exist and compensation is highest. There's people who are to scared to take the risk and move, or scared to see that they can't cut it and aren't as good or smart as they think they are. So they do things like convince them selves they don't want to be in SF, they repeat the ideas there's to much crime, its to liberal, the col is to high. Then shit post on the internet about it. We end up with these discussions not based in reality.
- jwilber 5y ago
  “We end up with these discussions not based in reality.” I can assure you that these discussions, while anecdotal, are in aggregate largely based in reality. I’m very liberal and enjoy some aspects San Francisco provides (mostly related to me being a lifelong skateboarder and surfer). I spent four of the last ten years in Berkeley and two in San Francisco. That said, I would not want to move there again. Everything (save a few hole-in-the-wall restaurants) is overpriced for the quality. The public drug use is insane, and itself a public health issue (there were more deaths from overdoses than from covid last year). Needles are everywhere. It’s sad to see people caught up in the grips of addiction every time you leave your porch. People scream to themselves all night. Crime is rampant and largely unpunished. Anecdotally, last month my friend and his gf were robbed in broad daylight by a car-full of people. Literally had their entire car ransacked at knife point. Many companies (Walgreens) are literally closing down and citing the lack of prosecuted crime as the reason. Housing prices are tremendous, especially when factoring in the house size and proximity to above issues. Again, none of these issues are related, at all, to insecurity. I have a high-paying job in FAANG and regularly ignore recruiters at other FAANG companies in SF not because of some personal insecurity, but because my current QoL is far better than a raise in SF would bring. Many of my friends in similar situations/incomes as myself have left for the same reasons. SF is certainly not the apocalyptic war zone some conservatives claim it to be, and living there isn’t all that terrible. But it’s not hard to see why flight out of the city is such a common occurrence. And it has nothing to do with insecurity. Many people approaching the midpoint of their careers simply want to settle down somewhere more affordable with less stressful externalities.
  - tayo42 5y ago
    If you went to sf, lived there and decided its not for you and you moved on with your life then your not the people I'm talking about. This thread is filled with people who went on a trip or saw some articles online and now need to keep comparing sf to their southern or mid west hometown or random places in asia and declare how horrible it is. Of course there's valid reasons to not live in a city, its a different lifestyle. I moved out of sf too, the density and everything that comes with it wasn't really for me. Other cities have problems too, you don't see constant articles about Seattle, or NYC. https://www.news10.com/news/ny-news/nypd-shootings-up-166-fueling-nyc-crime-surge/ https://www.news10.com/news/ny-news/nypd-shootings-up-166-fu... How come no ones writing large rants about how NYC is an overpriced cesspool?
yesenadam 5y ago
Well, just hide or flag the story and read something happier and more substantive, like uh...Windows vs Mac, spaces vs tabs, Emacs vs Vim, China vs US, C vs Rust, bash vs python etc. More seriously, I found the stories on this page pretty shocking and interesting, I didn't know it was anything like that in SF. Sydney here, pretty safe at night in most areas, ...and we have (free) public toilets.
acadien 5y ago
I agree with you there's a lot of anti SF content floating around these days. Just wanted to point out that in this article the author does go on to say he loves SF and thinks any uptick in crime will inevitably be countered. In that respect I felt it was a little different from the rhetoric you mentioned.
stingrae 5y ago
Maybe the goal it to get people to actually research the choices and show up to vote. I'm tired of the hit articles but also of the politicians stalling any changes.
asdff 5y ago
People are rightfully upset and impassioned about issues that directly affect their daily lives. I'm pretty pissed off my local politicians have proceeded to kick the can down the road on the same issues articles were being written about 10 years ago. My 'progressive' councilmember ignores my emails asking about when the bike lane network they planned a decade ago is getting implemented in our district, and seemingly I have zero recourse beyond pounding sand because this was supposed to be the transit oriented candidate (big lie, more status quo, and now they are an incumbent and likely there for years). It seems like there is only a solution presented when there is already a plan for who the contract will go to, when it comes to everything from treating the mentally ill or sheltering homeless to building transit and funding local schools. I'm sick of having a public government that works to enrich the private few, and abandon its mandate of serving the public in the process. I don't blame others for feeling the same and posting on these issues on discussion boards. I certainly find solidarity visiting these threads.
ironman1478 5y ago
I think a big part of the SF hate is that it's ostensibly a liberal place, when it's really a conservative city. It has horrible housing policies and isn't actually racially equal when you look at the wealth distribution within the city. I think SF's external perception makes it a target for vitriol from right wing people on the internet. SF has lots of problems to be clear, especially on the east side of the city.
- dude187 5y ago
  What about it (other than some choice outcomes) makes it a "conservative city"? Is it political policies? If so, can you name some? Is it the mentality of the residents? If so, what are some of those conservative mentalities? If it's just the outcomes you're talking about, what are some "liberal cities" with better outcomes that you compare against? I'd be interested in what those liberal cities are and how their outcomes differ.
  - ironman1478 5y ago
    It's heavily resistant to change. It's really difficult to build new housing for example due to nimbyism. Many people are trying to remove the parklets and slow street programs. There is simply no progress in this city. It is literally conservative. I think you look at places like Miami and south Florida, they are a lot better at building new housing because they have vastly different policies. The really hip areas are definitely expensive, but a house is still generally attainable in the greater south Florida area. I think SF wants itself to be perceived as an amazing place full of progress and inclusivity when it's really not that at all. It makes progress on civil rights only because the people of SF don't have to sacrifice anything to allow that to happen. But the second you want to change anything where they'd have to sacrifice for the collective good they fight tooth and nail. It's not all SF residents, but many are like this. You can hear it when the BoS accepts public comment.
dcow 5y ago
SF is objectively poorly managed. It's not just anecdotal. Follow the money and see where it leads... Personally I see the posts as a strong dose of red-pill happening here on NH as people wake up from their starry-eyed honeymoon with the city by the bay. From what I've seen, it's not just people saying "I visited and it sucked". It's people also saying "I lived there for 10+ years and it really has gone downhill". People were willing to tolerate the politics and move there for a job. For awhile, it's okay. You're making two to three times what any of your peers are making right out of school, you're single so the rent and living situation is tolerable. You could hit Off the Grid and catch up with a few friends from the job you left 2 months ago, Uber back to Latin American Social club and get trashed on 1 3/5th margaritas, try to meet some random people at Elbow Room and then end up at Rock Horror in the Clay theatre after you didn't get a spot at the pinball machine. You walk back to coworker's rooftop over on nob hill, hit a pre-roll, and then obviously get roped into closing out Yamasho. Roll into work at 11:37am the next day just in time for catered chicken and waffles and then go interview 2 prospective new grads that your 12 person recruiting team has procured. And then you grow up a little more. You want more space. You find a partner. You have to start thinking about schools and the type of community you want to actually help bring kids into the world. The trash and feces becomes more than just a nuisance, it's a glaring symptom of the endemic and it stares you in the face every morning as you go to work. All the fun just.. stops.. there's a global pandemic. Everyone elsewhere caught up to you in salary because you didn't want to commute 2 hours every day to work at FAANG. The FED pumps billions into the economy and your salary doesn't budge. All in all your 900 sq ft first floor apartment starts to feel really small for $3600/mo especially on top of a 13% state tax, 4% food "mandate", 1% "health tax" and general inflated retail prices across the board. Your politics mature. I'm not saying you're wrong to be liking the area--I did for many years too and do miss it time to time. But don't just dismiss these posts as "inflammatory". The narrative is real. I even know VCs who've moved away from the area. While the issues of homelessness and crime aren't "single cause", they're also not unsolved problems in other areas. That's the point. SF, for a "world class" city, is doing an utterly terrible job of managing its population, providing resources to keep bodies off the streets, provide usable transportation, etc. Why does the city need an additional 1.5% gross receipts tax to help deal with homelessness? Because all the money is tied up in pension funds. There's a saying: a democracy functions until the electorate realize they can vote themselves money directly out of the treasury. Couple that with rotten post-modern identity-based equity politics and you've got a recipe for a city constantly in a fiscal crisis ripe with corruption and unable to police actual crime because, quite literally, most of the well-meaning numb-sculls said "we don't want to police crime". The established landowners? "Fuck yours I got mine." Anyway, I don't know what to say if you're tired of reading red-pill comments. Either ignore them (hit the [-] button) and participate in other threads, or help work out solutions? "I'm tired of hearing that" isn't really an answer/solution (it's not even an anecdote to the contrary). People leaving SF, while they might be giddy in the moment, probably are just as frustrated or annoyed having to make the move as you might be hearing about it. It's bittersweet for me, at least (although maybe more so because I'm a freakin' foodie). I wrote this comment not because I enjoyed leaving or want to shit on SF or throw gas on the fire. I wrote it because it's sad to live through a city with so much potential turning out to be a corrupt "shit hole" (to use what seems to be the colloquial term nowadays) and ultimately coming to terms with the reality that SF is, like its iconic bridge, ultimately gilded. It doesn't have to be like that, and yet, with a collection of some of the brightest minds I've ever met, no real progress is made. Quite conservative for a liberal city, if you really think about it.
smaryjerry 5y ago
Bad governance is possible and even if you win 90 percent of the vote, it doesn’t mean you are governing well but it does mean you are governing to your constituents priorities. Obviously if people actually were bothered about these issues they wouldn’t continue to vote the same people in. Locals actually want this to happen, but indirectly just as a side effect of their other higher priorities. They are willing to make the sacrifices needed to allow people to stay out of jail, not be prosecuted for small crime, not be prosecuted for drugs, trespassing, not ruin people’s lives with criminal records. They allow people freedom to be a little bad. It’s just unfortunate that this kindness actually multiplies the people that want to receive this kindness. Where are people going to, we’ll the place that doesn’t kick them out, tell them to move their tents, doesn’t prosecute them, let’s then have freedom to do drugs. It’s not bad governance, it’s just different governance. And now anyone who doesn’t like that governance has to just leave, politicians get even more votes than ever before, and this validates that they have had the right priorities all along. Long story short the city gets exactly what it’s citizens want, it may not be perfect but I’m the trade offs are desirable. Personally , I come from Seattle, city with a large homeless population and I went to Portland Oregon and I was shocked how much homeless there are camping on the sidewalks of Portland, and just how it felt like I was surrounded by mentally ill people. It sounds like San Francisco is the same and for people like me that doesn’t feel like a dying city, it feels like a dead city, just inhabited by those who have accepted it as is. No doubt there are some nice outskirts or nice areas, but the threat you feel with unpredictable people constantly around isn’t something I’m at all used to and would never want at that level.

jollybean 5y ago

Well when police end up killing someone, it's usually anecdotal now isn't it? If the anecdote is representative of some kind of trend, then it's worth examining because the 'visceral reality' of these crimes are better understood. Having 7K in camera gear robbed in broad daylight by rando's in a Honda gives us a hint of understanding of what's happening. Aside from the 'Justice System changes' and COVID, we may very well be entering a kind of new phase in social culture. The thought of such a thing happening many decades ago, before massive increase in crime in the 1960's would have shocked people. They had different kinds of 'bad things' then. This kind of brazen crime should be very, very rare in regular, civilized places.

tayo42 5y ago

Yeah its tiring to see the negativity. Ill share my thought that's likely to attract some negative attention... I think it's interesting this shows up a lot on tech discussion site. I see it here, I see similar sentiments on reddit too. Some of it I'm willing to bet is based in insecurity. Sf and the bay area is where a lot of the best work, hardest to get jobs are, prestigious companies exist and compensation is highest. There's people who are to scared to take the risk and move, or scared to see that they can't cut it and aren't as good or smart as they think they are. So they do things like convince them selves they don't want to be in SF, they repeat the ideas there's to much crime, its to liberal, the col is to high. Then shit post on the internet about it. We end up with these discussions not based in reality.

jwilber 5y ago
“We end up with these discussions not based in reality.” I can assure you that these discussions, while anecdotal, are in aggregate largely based in reality. I’m very liberal and enjoy some aspects San Francisco provides (mostly related to me being a lifelong skateboarder and surfer). I spent four of the last ten years in Berkeley and two in San Francisco. That said, I would not want to move there again. Everything (save a few hole-in-the-wall restaurants) is overpriced for the quality. The public drug use is insane, and itself a public health issue (there were more deaths from overdoses than from covid last year). Needles are everywhere. It’s sad to see people caught up in the grips of addiction every time you leave your porch. People scream to themselves all night. Crime is rampant and largely unpunished. Anecdotally, last month my friend and his gf were robbed in broad daylight by a car-full of people. Literally had their entire car ransacked at knife point. Many companies (Walgreens) are literally closing down and citing the lack of prosecuted crime as the reason. Housing prices are tremendous, especially when factoring in the house size and proximity to above issues. Again, none of these issues are related, at all, to insecurity. I have a high-paying job in FAANG and regularly ignore recruiters at other FAANG companies in SF not because of some personal insecurity, but because my current QoL is far better than a raise in SF would bring. Many of my friends in similar situations/incomes as myself have left for the same reasons. SF is certainly not the apocalyptic war zone some conservatives claim it to be, and living there isn’t all that terrible. But it’s not hard to see why flight out of the city is such a common occurrence. And it has nothing to do with insecurity. Many people approaching the midpoint of their careers simply want to settle down somewhere more affordable with less stressful externalities.
- tayo42 5y ago
  If you went to sf, lived there and decided its not for you and you moved on with your life then your not the people I'm talking about. This thread is filled with people who went on a trip or saw some articles online and now need to keep comparing sf to their southern or mid west hometown or random places in asia and declare how horrible it is. Of course there's valid reasons to not live in a city, its a different lifestyle. I moved out of sf too, the density and everything that comes with it wasn't really for me. Other cities have problems too, you don't see constant articles about Seattle, or NYC. https://www.news10.com/news/ny-news/nypd-shootings-up-166-fueling-nyc-crime-surge/ https://www.news10.com/news/ny-news/nypd-shootings-up-166-fu... How come no ones writing large rants about how NYC is an overpriced cesspool?

yesenadam 5y ago

Well, just hide or flag the story and read something happier and more substantive, like uh...Windows vs Mac, spaces vs tabs, Emacs vs Vim, China vs US, C vs Rust, bash vs python etc. More seriously, I found the stories on this page pretty shocking and interesting, I didn't know it was anything like that in SF. Sydney here, pretty safe at night in most areas, ...and we have (free) public toilets.

acadien 5y ago

I agree with you there's a lot of anti SF content floating around these days. Just wanted to point out that in this article the author does go on to say he loves SF and thinks any uptick in crime will inevitably be countered. In that respect I felt it was a little different from the rhetoric you mentioned.

stingrae 5y ago

Maybe the goal it to get people to actually research the choices and show up to vote. I'm tired of the hit articles but also of the politicians stalling any changes.

asdff 5y ago

People are rightfully upset and impassioned about issues that directly affect their daily lives. I'm pretty pissed off my local politicians have proceeded to kick the can down the road on the same issues articles were being written about 10 years ago. My 'progressive' councilmember ignores my emails asking about when the bike lane network they planned a decade ago is getting implemented in our district, and seemingly I have zero recourse beyond pounding sand because this was supposed to be the transit oriented candidate (big lie, more status quo, and now they are an incumbent and likely there for years). It seems like there is only a solution presented when there is already a plan for who the contract will go to, when it comes to everything from treating the mentally ill or sheltering homeless to building transit and funding local schools. I'm sick of having a public government that works to enrich the private few, and abandon its mandate of serving the public in the process. I don't blame others for feeling the same and posting on these issues on discussion boards. I certainly find solidarity visiting these threads.

ironman1478 5y ago

I think a big part of the SF hate is that it's ostensibly a liberal place, when it's really a conservative city. It has horrible housing policies and isn't actually racially equal when you look at the wealth distribution within the city. I think SF's external perception makes it a target for vitriol from right wing people on the internet. SF has lots of problems to be clear, especially on the east side of the city.

dude187 5y ago
What about it (other than some choice outcomes) makes it a "conservative city"? Is it political policies? If so, can you name some? Is it the mentality of the residents? If so, what are some of those conservative mentalities? If it's just the outcomes you're talking about, what are some "liberal cities" with better outcomes that you compare against? I'd be interested in what those liberal cities are and how their outcomes differ.
- ironman1478 5y ago
  It's heavily resistant to change. It's really difficult to build new housing for example due to nimbyism. Many people are trying to remove the parklets and slow street programs. There is simply no progress in this city. It is literally conservative. I think you look at places like Miami and south Florida, they are a lot better at building new housing because they have vastly different policies. The really hip areas are definitely expensive, but a house is still generally attainable in the greater south Florida area. I think SF wants itself to be perceived as an amazing place full of progress and inclusivity when it's really not that at all. It makes progress on civil rights only because the people of SF don't have to sacrifice anything to allow that to happen. But the second you want to change anything where they'd have to sacrifice for the collective good they fight tooth and nail. It's not all SF residents, but many are like this. You can hear it when the BoS accepts public comment.

dcow 5y ago

SF is objectively poorly managed. It's not just anecdotal. Follow the money and see where it leads... Personally I see the posts as a strong dose of red-pill happening here on NH as people wake up from their starry-eyed honeymoon with the city by the bay. From what I've seen, it's not just people saying "I visited and it sucked". It's people also saying "I lived there for 10+ years and it really has gone downhill". People were willing to tolerate the politics and move there for a job. For awhile, it's okay. You're making two to three times what any of your peers are making right out of school, you're single so the rent and living situation is tolerable. You could hit Off the Grid and catch up with a few friends from the job you left 2 months ago, Uber back to Latin American Social club and get trashed on 1 3/5th margaritas, try to meet some random people at Elbow Room and then end up at Rock Horror in the Clay theatre after you didn't get a spot at the pinball machine. You walk back to coworker's rooftop over on nob hill, hit a pre-roll, and then obviously get roped into closing out Yamasho. Roll into work at 11:37am the next day just in time for catered chicken and waffles and then go interview 2 prospective new grads that your 12 person recruiting team has procured. And then you grow up a little more. You want more space. You find a partner. You have to start thinking about schools and the type of community you want to actually help bring kids into the world. The trash and feces becomes more than just a nuisance, it's a glaring symptom of the endemic and it stares you in the face every morning as you go to work. All the fun just.. stops.. there's a global pandemic. Everyone elsewhere caught up to you in salary because you didn't want to commute 2 hours every day to work at FAANG. The FED pumps billions into the economy and your salary doesn't budge. All in all your 900 sq ft first floor apartment starts to feel really small for $3600/mo especially on top of a 13% state tax, 4% food "mandate", 1% "health tax" and general inflated retail prices across the board. Your politics mature. I'm not saying you're wrong to be liking the area--I did for many years too and do miss it time to time. But don't just dismiss these posts as "inflammatory". The narrative is real. I even know VCs who've moved away from the area. While the issues of homelessness and crime aren't "single cause", they're also not unsolved problems in other areas. That's the point. SF, for a "world class" city, is doing an utterly terrible job of managing its population, providing resources to keep bodies off the streets, provide usable transportation, etc. Why does the city need an additional 1.5% gross receipts tax to help deal with homelessness? Because all the money is tied up in pension funds. There's a saying: a democracy functions until the electorate realize they can vote themselves money directly out of the treasury. Couple that with rotten post-modern identity-based equity politics and you've got a recipe for a city constantly in a fiscal crisis ripe with corruption and unable to police actual crime because, quite literally, most of the well-meaning numb-sculls said "we don't want to police crime". The established landowners? "Fuck yours I got mine." Anyway, I don't know what to say if you're tired of reading red-pill comments. Either ignore them (hit the [-] button) and participate in other threads, or help work out solutions? "I'm tired of hearing that" isn't really an answer/solution (it's not even an anecdote to the contrary). People leaving SF, while they might be giddy in the moment, probably are just as frustrated or annoyed having to make the move as you might be hearing about it. It's bittersweet for me, at least (although maybe more so because I'm a freakin' foodie). I wrote this comment not because I enjoyed leaving or want to shit on SF or throw gas on the fire. I wrote it because it's sad to live through a city with so much potential turning out to be a corrupt "shit hole" (to use what seems to be the colloquial term nowadays) and ultimately coming to terms with the reality that SF is, like its iconic bridge, ultimately gilded. It doesn't have to be like that, and yet, with a collection of some of the brightest minds I've ever met, no real progress is made. Quite conservative for a liberal city, if you really think about it.

smaryjerry 5y ago

Bad governance is possible and even if you win 90 percent of the vote, it doesn’t mean you are governing well but it does mean you are governing to your constituents priorities. Obviously if people actually were bothered about these issues they wouldn’t continue to vote the same people in. Locals actually want this to happen, but indirectly just as a side effect of their other higher priorities. They are willing to make the sacrifices needed to allow people to stay out of jail, not be prosecuted for small crime, not be prosecuted for drugs, trespassing, not ruin people’s lives with criminal records. They allow people freedom to be a little bad. It’s just unfortunate that this kindness actually multiplies the people that want to receive this kindness. Where are people going to, we’ll the place that doesn’t kick them out, tell them to move their tents, doesn’t prosecute them, let’s then have freedom to do drugs. It’s not bad governance, it’s just different governance. And now anyone who doesn’t like that governance has to just leave, politicians get even more votes than ever before, and this validates that they have had the right priorities all along. Long story short the city gets exactly what it’s citizens want, it may not be perfect but I’m the trade offs are desirable. Personally , I come from Seattle, city with a large homeless population and I went to Portland Oregon and I was shocked how much homeless there are camping on the sidewalks of Portland, and just how it felt like I was surrounded by mentally ill people. It sounds like San Francisco is the same and for people like me that doesn’t feel like a dying city, it feels like a dead city, just inhabited by those who have accepted it as is. No doubt there are some nice outskirts or nice areas, but the threat you feel with unpredictable people constantly around isn’t something I’m at all used to and would never want at that level.