7 ms·

I do not think that the current crime situation in San Francisco appeared by some fluke or an accident. Specific policies were put in place by the progressive g

by throwaway1959 5y ago

I do not think that the current crime situation in San Francisco appeared by some fluke or an accident. Specific policies were put in place by the progressive government officials and progressive people in San Francisco voted for these policies. I think is a cautionary tale for the rest of the country on what happens when progressive utopia gets voted in.

phsau 5y ago
Which policies?
- throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
  decarceration, even for repeat violent criminals and no penalties for property crime.
  - Clewza313 5y ago
    California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html There are many, many problems in CA, but putting more people in jail is not going to solve any of them.
    - throw1123581321 5y ago
      > California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics Well, most European and Nordic countries don't have 13% of the population committing 52% of the violent crime. So this is kind of an unfair comparison.
      - Clewza313 5y ago
        Why? Immigrants, various ethnic and social minorities, and repeat offenders are overrepresented in Europe's crime stats as well. If anything, Europe tends to have much shorter sentences, so reoffenders can commit more crimes.
    - ggreer 5y ago
      Isn’t our crime 5x more? The only way to get the same incarceration rate would be to imprison criminals 1/5th as much as Europeans do.
      - Clewza313 5y ago
        Or, you know, fix problems earlier down the line so you don't get 5x more crime.
    - asdff 5y ago
      I think the biggest disparity is the lack of any meaningful mental health or addiction treatment, and the law allows people who are out of their mind to refuse treatment and die on the street.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Policies of not prosecuting criminals.
- laurent92 5y ago
  Same as in France: - Being lenient towards criminals because we need to have empathy towards all humans (real victims being forgotten here); - Encouraging “deconstruction”, deconstruction of family values, of masculinity, of marriage, of traditional rules, replacement by state-sponsored benefits, which break the social fabric (a human as a free-spinning electron without roots may be healthy and wealthy, but at extremely high risk in case of unexpected event); - Cult of female employment as their main role in society, which, in positions of power, happens to soften the stance towards criminals and deconstruct structures (hierarchies, things that worked to develop our nations, justice system). I don’t know the ratio for Cali but in France, 76 to 81% graduates of ENM (main school for judges) are female since 1977, and we basically free the criminals because they have compassion for them. - Immigration and being ostracized when pointing out illegal immigration or rules about it, which leads to unreasoned immigration. Which turns into people with broken social fabric, which means they weigh on state sponsored rescue instead of family. But the biggest danger about a California is that it impacts the whole rest of the world: they apply their cultural pressure using the soft power that is social media, which puts the sane parts of the world at risk of having the same ideas.
  - jmeister 5y ago
    You must not be American, definitely not Californian because the points you make are extremely taboo. In the US there are probably a handful of feminist-critics who dare to say these things in the mainstream, e.g. Camille Paglia, Christina Hoff Sommers. What is the intellectual climate like in France? Can someone write what you wrote above in a mainstream newspaper column?
    - laurent92 5y ago
      French people consider themselves an exception compared to USA, but stats depict a stunning similarity: Our stats about male/female suicide, court judgements about family, female position in companies, are closeby the US ones, generally within 4%. The whole Western world, despite local specificities, are going through the surprisingly same questions as I’ve raised about California in the main trends, and local trends don’t offset the main direction. Culturally, France systematically follows US trends with 10 years delay. My theory is that ideas are tested/tuned in US and reproduced with more intensity in Europe, with the additional help that France already has a strong socialist culture (a quarter of its workforce as public servants, tradition of organizing and demonstrating) so there is no counterpoint to the liberal arguments. So we basically have similar laws to California. We even have a Ministry of Equality, which sound terribly dystopian.
- natch 5y ago
  Debit cards given to homeless people with auto deposits every month courtesy of the city, I guess would be one. I think it sounds like a kind, humane policy btw, even though I answered the question. But one that as you can imagine comes with some built in problems. Edit: I do get that homeless does not equal criminal. But, see broken windows effect.
edrxty 5y ago
"Progressive Bad" isn't really the takeaway here. It turns out nuance is important. Questionable policies combined with a complex socioeconomic situation due to decades of perverse incentives isn't, in fact, an optimal strategy of governance.
- throwaway1959 5y ago
  I think it's hard to argue that the SF government is not comprised of people on the forefront of the progressive agenda. Am I wrong about this? Take a look at Chesa Boudin, for example [1]. All their policies are progressive (their voters would certainly hope so). Are you saying that San Francisco's progressive policies are not the right progressive policies? Which place has the right policies then? Chicago? Their crime rate does not seem much better. Or Chicago also implements wrong progressive ideas? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
  - edrxty 5y ago
    To be honest, I think American progressivism as a whole is a bit compromised as it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased and second never truly taxing the rich. Further they need to consider the externalities they create. If a city or state is going to implement supportive policies, people from surrounding areas (areas not contributing to the tax base) may choose or be pressured to travel there. This isn't to say progressivism is doomed in America or we must force socialist policies onto all outlying areas, just that the process of learning how to properly roll out socially responsible policies is still ongoing and one of the major issues is rapidly growing polarization with no interest in nuance.
    - dude187 5y ago
      > it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased What goals are compromised to "keep the corporations pleased"? How would these goals be defined if the corporations were not be taken into account? > and second never truly taxing the rich You hold "taxing the rich" as some sort of high level independent goal to be done in and of itself. Can you quantify what the lack of funds are that available to SF from not "taxing the rich"? How much is the budget shortfall, and what would this extra budget go to if San Francisco were to "tax the rich"?
ma2rten 5y ago
I actually don't know if the crime rate in SF is higher than elsewhere, but if it is I think cause is the opposite. It's what happens when capitalism goes unchecked. Cost of living is on the rise while wages are stagnant. Crimes are often committed by people who are desperate. Also there are no facilities for people who are mentally ill, who will go on to commit crimes.
- epicureanideal 5y ago
  Capitalism isn't what's happening in SF. NIMBYism, cronyism, inability to build, tons of regulatory red tape to do anything, high taxes, etc. is not capitalism.
  - Layke1123 5y ago
    All the result of capitalism. You don't get to write that shit off and say, "Well technically that's not MY capitalism."
  - ako 5y ago
    All of those may be true, but the bad effects of uncontrolled capitalism most likely also have something to do with the situation. If you expect people to live by the rules, they should have a honest opportunity to do so. But if all they can get is a job that doesn't even pay for a small room, what are your possibilities to live a honest live? If you remove punishment, but the only option people have is to break the law to survive, the only outcome to be expected is increased number of crimes.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      Those are the opposites of unconstrained capitalism. In unconstrained capitalism you'd have lots of building, building bigger multifamily residences and towers, no zoning getting in the way, little to no taxes, etc.
      - ako 5y ago
        I doubt that very much: building space is scarce in SF, as a property developer if you have a choice to build an expensive high revenue buidling versus a more affordable building for low income people, what would you choose? In capitalism there is no driving force to ensure customer desires will or can be met, making profit is what drives it. You need constraints or laws to ensure commercially unattractive needs ar served.
codemusings 5y ago
Yeah. That's the problem. Might not be related at all to the SF housing situation, insane rents and the fact that the US still has no universal health care insurance. You know. Stuff people need to survive and not be homeless.

phsau 5y ago

Which policies?

throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
decarceration, even for repeat violent criminals and no penalties for property crime.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html There are many, many problems in CA, but putting more people in jail is not going to solve any of them.
  - throw1123581321 5y ago
    > California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics Well, most European and Nordic countries don't have 13% of the population committing 52% of the violent crime. So this is kind of an unfair comparison.
    - Clewza313 5y ago
      Why? Immigrants, various ethnic and social minorities, and repeat offenders are overrepresented in Europe's crime stats as well. If anything, Europe tends to have much shorter sentences, so reoffenders can commit more crimes.
  - ggreer 5y ago
    Isn’t our crime 5x more? The only way to get the same incarceration rate would be to imprison criminals 1/5th as much as Europeans do.
    - Clewza313 5y ago
      Or, you know, fix problems earlier down the line so you don't get 5x more crime.
  - asdff 5y ago
    I think the biggest disparity is the lack of any meaningful mental health or addiction treatment, and the law allows people who are out of their mind to refuse treatment and die on the street.
xyzzyz 5y ago
Policies of not prosecuting criminals.
laurent92 5y ago
Same as in France: - Being lenient towards criminals because we need to have empathy towards all humans (real victims being forgotten here); - Encouraging “deconstruction”, deconstruction of family values, of masculinity, of marriage, of traditional rules, replacement by state-sponsored benefits, which break the social fabric (a human as a free-spinning electron without roots may be healthy and wealthy, but at extremely high risk in case of unexpected event); - Cult of female employment as their main role in society, which, in positions of power, happens to soften the stance towards criminals and deconstruct structures (hierarchies, things that worked to develop our nations, justice system). I don’t know the ratio for Cali but in France, 76 to 81% graduates of ENM (main school for judges) are female since 1977, and we basically free the criminals because they have compassion for them. - Immigration and being ostracized when pointing out illegal immigration or rules about it, which leads to unreasoned immigration. Which turns into people with broken social fabric, which means they weigh on state sponsored rescue instead of family. But the biggest danger about a California is that it impacts the whole rest of the world: they apply their cultural pressure using the soft power that is social media, which puts the sane parts of the world at risk of having the same ideas.
- jmeister 5y ago
  You must not be American, definitely not Californian because the points you make are extremely taboo. In the US there are probably a handful of feminist-critics who dare to say these things in the mainstream, e.g. Camille Paglia, Christina Hoff Sommers. What is the intellectual climate like in France? Can someone write what you wrote above in a mainstream newspaper column?
  - laurent92 5y ago
    French people consider themselves an exception compared to USA, but stats depict a stunning similarity: Our stats about male/female suicide, court judgements about family, female position in companies, are closeby the US ones, generally within 4%. The whole Western world, despite local specificities, are going through the surprisingly same questions as I’ve raised about California in the main trends, and local trends don’t offset the main direction. Culturally, France systematically follows US trends with 10 years delay. My theory is that ideas are tested/tuned in US and reproduced with more intensity in Europe, with the additional help that France already has a strong socialist culture (a quarter of its workforce as public servants, tradition of organizing and demonstrating) so there is no counterpoint to the liberal arguments. So we basically have similar laws to California. We even have a Ministry of Equality, which sound terribly dystopian.
natch 5y ago
Debit cards given to homeless people with auto deposits every month courtesy of the city, I guess would be one. I think it sounds like a kind, humane policy btw, even though I answered the question. But one that as you can imagine comes with some built in problems. Edit: I do get that homeless does not equal criminal. But, see broken windows effect.

edrxty 5y ago

"Progressive Bad" isn't really the takeaway here. It turns out nuance is important. Questionable policies combined with a complex socioeconomic situation due to decades of perverse incentives isn't, in fact, an optimal strategy of governance.

throwaway1959 5y ago
I think it's hard to argue that the SF government is not comprised of people on the forefront of the progressive agenda. Am I wrong about this? Take a look at Chesa Boudin, for example [1]. All their policies are progressive (their voters would certainly hope so). Are you saying that San Francisco's progressive policies are not the right progressive policies? Which place has the right policies then? Chicago? Their crime rate does not seem much better. Or Chicago also implements wrong progressive ideas? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
- edrxty 5y ago
  To be honest, I think American progressivism as a whole is a bit compromised as it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased and second never truly taxing the rich. Further they need to consider the externalities they create. If a city or state is going to implement supportive policies, people from surrounding areas (areas not contributing to the tax base) may choose or be pressured to travel there. This isn't to say progressivism is doomed in America or we must force socialist policies onto all outlying areas, just that the process of learning how to properly roll out socially responsible policies is still ongoing and one of the major issues is rapidly growing polarization with no interest in nuance.
  - dude187 5y ago
    > it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased What goals are compromised to "keep the corporations pleased"? How would these goals be defined if the corporations were not be taken into account? > and second never truly taxing the rich You hold "taxing the rich" as some sort of high level independent goal to be done in and of itself. Can you quantify what the lack of funds are that available to SF from not "taxing the rich"? How much is the budget shortfall, and what would this extra budget go to if San Francisco were to "tax the rich"?

ma2rten 5y ago

I actually don't know if the crime rate in SF is higher than elsewhere, but if it is I think cause is the opposite. It's what happens when capitalism goes unchecked. Cost of living is on the rise while wages are stagnant. Crimes are often committed by people who are desperate. Also there are no facilities for people who are mentally ill, who will go on to commit crimes.

epicureanideal 5y ago
Capitalism isn't what's happening in SF. NIMBYism, cronyism, inability to build, tons of regulatory red tape to do anything, high taxes, etc. is not capitalism.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  All the result of capitalism. You don't get to write that shit off and say, "Well technically that's not MY capitalism."
- ako 5y ago
  All of those may be true, but the bad effects of uncontrolled capitalism most likely also have something to do with the situation. If you expect people to live by the rules, they should have a honest opportunity to do so. But if all they can get is a job that doesn't even pay for a small room, what are your possibilities to live a honest live? If you remove punishment, but the only option people have is to break the law to survive, the only outcome to be expected is increased number of crimes.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Those are the opposites of unconstrained capitalism. In unconstrained capitalism you'd have lots of building, building bigger multifamily residences and towers, no zoning getting in the way, little to no taxes, etc.
    - ako 5y ago
      I doubt that very much: building space is scarce in SF, as a property developer if you have a choice to build an expensive high revenue buidling versus a more affordable building for low income people, what would you choose? In capitalism there is no driving force to ensure customer desires will or can be met, making profit is what drives it. You need constraints or laws to ensure commercially unattractive needs ar served.

codemusings 5y ago

Yeah. That's the problem. Might not be related at all to the SF housing situation, insane rents and the fact that the US still has no universal health care insurance. You know. Stuff people need to survive and not be homeless.