6 ms·

It only takes a small amount of latency (5 ms or so) to noticeably impact performances by musicians. Latency is also an issue when you want to monitor a live si

by tigeba 5y ago

It only takes a small amount of latency (5 ms or so) to noticeably impact performances by musicians. Latency is also an issue when you want to monitor a live signal along with other recorded audio, like in a DAW. It is not as big a deal with a playback only device.

Scramblejams 5y ago
Interesting, I wouldn't have expected it to be that low, though in the aircraft space, control harmony can be disrupted with as little as 20ms of delay between control input and control surface movement[0]. Do you have any research you can suggest for that 5ms number? [0] http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/reports/dfbw_tomayko.pdf http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/reports/dfbw_tomay... (Keeping the delay at or under 10ms was the recommendation I got from the study P.I.)
- tgv 5y ago
  It's not that low. Up to 40ms (roundtrip) isn't a problem for solo playing, in my experience. And it's also a matter of training. Church organists learn to play with much larger delays.
  - vnorilo 5y ago
    I can deal with 10ms roundtrip, but not much more. One issue is when you get some acoustic sound too (open headphones, bone conductance, singing) and pretty much any delay in the headphone signal causes phase interference.
    - tgv 5y ago
      Yeah, I have to add that for me 40ms is ok when playing a virtual instrument. Did you ever see people who try to sing with headphones with a delay of around 200ms? That really messes up your performance.
      - vnorilo 5y ago
        With a virtual instrument you would usually not face the full round trip latency, but rather control latency (MIDI?) and audio output latency (usually 50% of roundtrip). So in the VSTi case that might be closer to 25ms than 40ms in practice. Often the latency jitter is quite dreadful in this case as the control signal is not synchronous to audio.
- ddls 5y ago
  Here's one : https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/mp.2006.24.1.49?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/mp.2006.24.1.49?seq=1 And another (follow the links to the article, but I thought that particular graph was most informative) : https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Audio-latency-tolerance-in-experiment-sets-A-and-B_fig5_242374965 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Audio-latency-tolerance-...
ssfrr 5y ago
rule of thumb is that sound travels roughly 1ft per ms, so 5ms is the same as standing 5 extra feet from the speaker. Most musicians don't have much trouble up to around 10-20ms. Jitter is killer though - if the latency is randomly changing it's really annoying.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  Is the speed of sound relevant in most recording scenarios? Assuming headphones and instrument/vocal mics that are within a few inches, then everything is traveling as electrical signals at the speed of light. Or is this just meant as a visualization of latency in these scenarios versus what it would be like with musicians playing x ft apart from each other in a room?
  - ComputerGuru 5y ago
    The latter. The point being that they are trained, comfortable, and proficient in those scenarios and the same translates to a (consistent!) software delay of up to 10ms.
  - simonjgreen 5y ago
    It absolutely is. Many times when rigging halls for recording live events I've had to insert delay in to sub mixes to match latency to the back of the room. It's standard fair for a live audio tech (a thing I do on the side occasionally)
  - schroffl 5y ago
    I recently played on an electronic drum set and it was absolutely fine with headphones. But when we hooked it up to the speakers across the room there was a very noticable delay (~5ms as we calculated) when hitting the pads with the stick. Since I only used acoustic drums until then I never gave much thought to the idea of having your drums sound delayed. It was quite eye opening.
  - boomlinde 5y ago
    > Assuming headphones and instrument/vocal mics that are within a few inches It is relevant, and monitoring via headphones or a floor speaker is a mitigation. It's also a problem for large orchestras. If everyone else just plays along with what they hear from the people near them, the timing is going to be inconsistent across the orchestra pit even if you have some obvious audible reference like loud percussion. The mitigation is to orient yourself as much as possible around the visual cues from a conductor.

by tigeba 5y ago

Scramblejams 5y ago

Interesting, I wouldn't have expected it to be that low, though in the aircraft space, control harmony can be disrupted with as little as 20ms of delay between control input and control surface movement[0]. Do you have any research you can suggest for that 5ms number? [0] http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/reports/dfbw_tomayko.pdf http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/reports/dfbw_tomay... (Keeping the delay at or under 10ms was the recommendation I got from the study P.I.)

tgv 5y ago
It's not that low. Up to 40ms (roundtrip) isn't a problem for solo playing, in my experience. And it's also a matter of training. Church organists learn to play with much larger delays.
- vnorilo 5y ago
  I can deal with 10ms roundtrip, but not much more. One issue is when you get some acoustic sound too (open headphones, bone conductance, singing) and pretty much any delay in the headphone signal causes phase interference.
  - tgv 5y ago
    Yeah, I have to add that for me 40ms is ok when playing a virtual instrument. Did you ever see people who try to sing with headphones with a delay of around 200ms? That really messes up your performance.
    - vnorilo 5y ago
      With a virtual instrument you would usually not face the full round trip latency, but rather control latency (MIDI?) and audio output latency (usually 50% of roundtrip). So in the VSTi case that might be closer to 25ms than 40ms in practice. Often the latency jitter is quite dreadful in this case as the control signal is not synchronous to audio.
ddls 5y ago
Here's one : https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/mp.2006.24.1.49?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/mp.2006.24.1.49?seq=1 And another (follow the links to the article, but I thought that particular graph was most informative) : https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Audio-latency-tolerance-in-experiment-sets-A-and-B_fig5_242374965 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Audio-latency-tolerance-...

ssfrr 5y ago

rule of thumb is that sound travels roughly 1ft per ms, so 5ms is the same as standing 5 extra feet from the speaker. Most musicians don't have much trouble up to around 10-20ms. Jitter is killer though - if the latency is randomly changing it's really annoying.

mikepurvis 5y ago
Is the speed of sound relevant in most recording scenarios? Assuming headphones and instrument/vocal mics that are within a few inches, then everything is traveling as electrical signals at the speed of light. Or is this just meant as a visualization of latency in these scenarios versus what it would be like with musicians playing x ft apart from each other in a room?
- ComputerGuru 5y ago
  The latter. The point being that they are trained, comfortable, and proficient in those scenarios and the same translates to a (consistent!) software delay of up to 10ms.
- simonjgreen 5y ago
  It absolutely is. Many times when rigging halls for recording live events I've had to insert delay in to sub mixes to match latency to the back of the room. It's standard fair for a live audio tech (a thing I do on the side occasionally)
- schroffl 5y ago
  I recently played on an electronic drum set and it was absolutely fine with headphones. But when we hooked it up to the speakers across the room there was a very noticable delay (~5ms as we calculated) when hitting the pads with the stick. Since I only used acoustic drums until then I never gave much thought to the idea of having your drums sound delayed. It was quite eye opening.
- boomlinde 5y ago
  > Assuming headphones and instrument/vocal mics that are within a few inches It is relevant, and monitoring via headphones or a floor speaker is a mitigation. It's also a problem for large orchestras. If everyone else just plays along with what they hear from the people near them, the timing is going to be inconsistent across the orchestra pit even if you have some obvious audible reference like loud percussion. The mitigation is to orient yourself as much as possible around the visual cues from a conductor.