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It is strange to me that there is this much concern over whether COVID came from a lab or not because ultimately it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need

It is strange to me that there is this much concern over whether COVID came from a lab or not because ultimately it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need for additional safety protocols if proven true. "Virus from a lab" != engineered bioweapon, and regardless of whether infected animals existed in nature, got placed in a lab, and then an infection occurred or whether humans came in contact with infected animals in nature outside of the lab, we still should have employed much better disease management protocols than we did. We (Americans) aren't suddenly absolved of responsibility for our failures to contain this pandemic if it turns out that this was a lab leak, nor will the Chinese be any more responsible for the pandemic than they already are.

xupybd 5y ago
If it's a lab leak it gives us people to blame. That's huge as far as a world wide pandemic goes.
- minikites 5y ago
  Suppose we now know who to blame. How does that help us address the current situation?
  - kokanator 5y ago
    Does nothing for the current situation but helps us to understand future pandemic sources. If the virus escaped or was released from a specific source we can deal with the security of that location and others like it. If it truly passed from a bat/pangolin/chicken, etc we can begin to deal with the sources of that vector. This truly is a serious question that must be resolved.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    Nothing practical, but it fills a human emotional void.
metalliqaz 5y ago
its important to some people because they want to be able to blame China, I guess. of course it's actually meaningless. the actual crime was the cover up that occurred after the virus was on the loose, delaying preparations and making containment impossible. we already know that happened
- minikites 5y ago
  Exactly, it's a reason to get clicks and drum up Sinophobia, this theory wouldn't be pushed at all if the suspect origin nation was in North America or Europe.
callesgg 5y ago
Media attention != concern Media attention == media sales Well... that is how I see it.
thallavajhula 5y ago
It is fair to be concerned about the origin of the virus that continues to shake the world. The purpose of this investigation is 2 parts really - 1. to show political dominance/name calling 2. to be cautious in the future Unfortunately, while (2) is still true, the majority of the news coverage is around (1).
kevinstubbs 5y ago
I think if it can be proven that it came from their lab, A LOT of entities (companies, countries, and... individuals?) will be looking for reparations. Considering how many lives have been lost, impaired, companies bankrupt, money lost, etc. it would be highly consequential if the whole world (besides China's allies) agree to formally put the blame on China. Especially considering that they do not have UN veto super powers.
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  no they won't. why would the government there ever allow that?
  - kevinstubbs 5y ago
    The Chinese government you mean? I'm talking about international court, sanctions.. honestly I don't know what tools are available, but seems to me if most of the world agrees on something, they can make it into reality. Besides the real costs of the virus, you can also consider how this is geopolitically very advantageous for allll the countries who would gain from delaying China's economic rise. Even the developing countries who benefit from Chinese investment could benefit from this, because if the financial pain is high enough, they may have more leverage to renegotiate the terms of repayment.
- neaanopri 5y ago
  China is on the UN security council, so they have as much De Jure power as the US does at the UN
  - kevinstubbs 5y ago
    Ohhh, I didn't know that it included China! I thought it was just US, UK, France, and Russia
wearywanderer 5y ago
> it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need for additional safety protocols. It calls into question the entire premise of this sort of research. If the risk of accidental release in the course of this research is greater than the risk of a natural pandemic, then the research should be discontinued. Of course anybody who is involved in this sort of research has a strong personal incentive to discourage such lines of thought, since it could end their careers.
neaanopri 5y ago
Diplomatically, this is extremely relevant. If Chinese state actors are culpable for the pandemic, it seems plausible other nations will seek damages from the Chinese government. If not paid, they may levy fines on commerce from Chinese companies. However, I'm still very skeptical of "lab leak", I think the zoonotic origin is most likely. If the zoonotic origin resulted from poorly regulated wet markets, however, Covid is just as much a result of bad government policy by China as in the lab leak case. China needs to convince the world that they have taken steps which will prevent Covid from ever happening again. At a minimum, this includes tightly regulating wet markets so that animals will be "socially distanced" with good ventilation, if not banning wet markets altogether. If China is unwilling to do this, they present an ongoing pandemic risk, and it seems reasonable for the rest of the world to restrict travel to China until they comply.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"If Chinese state actors are culpable for the pandemic, it seems plausible other nations will seek damages from the Chinese government. If not paid, they may levy fines on commerce from Chinese companies." The US had sponsored virus research in Wuhan's lab possibly including "gain of function". If COVID leaked from that lab it could make the US culpable as well.
PH01 5y ago
If it proved that this was a lab leak and evidence suggests the lab leak was covered up there will be a seismic shift in international relations with China across the globe. I would not call that irrelevant in the slightest.
Judgmentality 5y ago
> ultimately it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need for additional safety protocols if proven true Well yeah, and those safety protocols could've prevented the pandemic. You're arguing this isn't important? This could prevent the next black plague, regardless of whether it was released intentionally or not (I do not believe it was released intentionally, my point is that's irrelevant to this discussion of public safety).
jkingsbery 5y ago
I would agree that, yes, many of the things you raised are things we'd look at regardless, but in any "5 Why's"-type investigation, you have to get to the root cause. Whether this came from a lab will probably have a huge influence on the future of Gain of Function research, both how it is conducted and whether we as a global society think it is a good idea. If on the other hand COVID was a natural occurring disease, but we have been unable to figure out the path from its origin in animals to eventually infecting humans, then we will probably need better techniques for tracking such transmissions. I think everyone knows that bats carry diseases, but most of what I read has indicated that in the natural scenario there was probably an intermediary animal, and knowing what animal that is surely would change how we approach that animal and its habitat in the wild.
aarongray 5y ago
Humans don't have to bioengineer a weaponized virus on purpose for a lab to be what created the virus. One common thing that happens in these research labs is that viruses can jump from one lab culture to another and swap genetic material to make hybrids that are more contagious for example. This might explain the furin cleavage site in the spike protein that helps SARS-CoV-2 pry its way into human cells. Further reading here: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/03/18/1021030/coronavirus-leak-wuhan-lab-scientists-conspiracy/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/03/18/1021030/coronavi...
goldcd 5y ago
Agreed - but I'd take it further. As a hypothetical let's assume this disease was created, enhanced, released and let's even say all of this was done deliberately with malice of forethought. Doesn't alter a thing - our collective response was 'C-'

xupybd 5y ago

If it's a lab leak it gives us people to blame. That's huge as far as a world wide pandemic goes.

minikites 5y ago
Suppose we now know who to blame. How does that help us address the current situation?
- kokanator 5y ago
  Does nothing for the current situation but helps us to understand future pandemic sources. If the virus escaped or was released from a specific source we can deal with the security of that location and others like it. If it truly passed from a bat/pangolin/chicken, etc we can begin to deal with the sources of that vector. This truly is a serious question that must be resolved.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Nothing practical, but it fills a human emotional void.

metalliqaz 5y ago

its important to some people because they want to be able to blame China, I guess. of course it's actually meaningless. the actual crime was the cover up that occurred after the virus was on the loose, delaying preparations and making containment impossible. we already know that happened

minikites 5y ago
Exactly, it's a reason to get clicks and drum up Sinophobia, this theory wouldn't be pushed at all if the suspect origin nation was in North America or Europe.

callesgg 5y ago

Media attention != concern Media attention == media sales Well... that is how I see it.

thallavajhula 5y ago

It is fair to be concerned about the origin of the virus that continues to shake the world. The purpose of this investigation is 2 parts really - 1. to show political dominance/name calling 2. to be cautious in the future Unfortunately, while (2) is still true, the majority of the news coverage is around (1).

kevinstubbs 5y ago

I think if it can be proven that it came from their lab, A LOT of entities (companies, countries, and... individuals?) will be looking for reparations. Considering how many lives have been lost, impaired, companies bankrupt, money lost, etc. it would be highly consequential if the whole world (besides China's allies) agree to formally put the blame on China. Especially considering that they do not have UN veto super powers.

metalliqaz 5y ago
no they won't. why would the government there ever allow that?
- kevinstubbs 5y ago
  The Chinese government you mean? I'm talking about international court, sanctions.. honestly I don't know what tools are available, but seems to me if most of the world agrees on something, they can make it into reality. Besides the real costs of the virus, you can also consider how this is geopolitically very advantageous for allll the countries who would gain from delaying China's economic rise. Even the developing countries who benefit from Chinese investment could benefit from this, because if the financial pain is high enough, they may have more leverage to renegotiate the terms of repayment.
neaanopri 5y ago
China is on the UN security council, so they have as much De Jure power as the US does at the UN
- kevinstubbs 5y ago
  Ohhh, I didn't know that it included China! I thought it was just US, UK, France, and Russia

wearywanderer 5y ago

> it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need for additional safety protocols. It calls into question the entire premise of this sort of research. If the risk of accidental release in the course of this research is greater than the risk of a natural pandemic, then the research should be discontinued. Of course anybody who is involved in this sort of research has a strong personal incentive to discourage such lines of thought, since it could end their careers.

neaanopri 5y ago

Diplomatically, this is extremely relevant. If Chinese state actors are culpable for the pandemic, it seems plausible other nations will seek damages from the Chinese government. If not paid, they may levy fines on commerce from Chinese companies. However, I'm still very skeptical of "lab leak", I think the zoonotic origin is most likely. If the zoonotic origin resulted from poorly regulated wet markets, however, Covid is just as much a result of bad government policy by China as in the lab leak case. China needs to convince the world that they have taken steps which will prevent Covid from ever happening again. At a minimum, this includes tightly regulating wet markets so that animals will be "socially distanced" with good ventilation, if not banning wet markets altogether. If China is unwilling to do this, they present an ongoing pandemic risk, and it seems reasonable for the rest of the world to restrict travel to China until they comply.

FpUser 5y ago
>"If Chinese state actors are culpable for the pandemic, it seems plausible other nations will seek damages from the Chinese government. If not paid, they may levy fines on commerce from Chinese companies." The US had sponsored virus research in Wuhan's lab possibly including "gain of function". If COVID leaked from that lab it could make the US culpable as well.

PH01 5y ago

If it proved that this was a lab leak and evidence suggests the lab leak was covered up there will be a seismic shift in international relations with China across the globe. I would not call that irrelevant in the slightest.

Judgmentality 5y ago

> ultimately it is irrelevant outside of highlighting a need for additional safety protocols if proven true Well yeah, and those safety protocols could've prevented the pandemic. You're arguing this isn't important? This could prevent the next black plague, regardless of whether it was released intentionally or not (I do not believe it was released intentionally, my point is that's irrelevant to this discussion of public safety).

jkingsbery 5y ago

I would agree that, yes, many of the things you raised are things we'd look at regardless, but in any "5 Why's"-type investigation, you have to get to the root cause. Whether this came from a lab will probably have a huge influence on the future of Gain of Function research, both how it is conducted and whether we as a global society think it is a good idea. If on the other hand COVID was a natural occurring disease, but we have been unable to figure out the path from its origin in animals to eventually infecting humans, then we will probably need better techniques for tracking such transmissions. I think everyone knows that bats carry diseases, but most of what I read has indicated that in the natural scenario there was probably an intermediary animal, and knowing what animal that is surely would change how we approach that animal and its habitat in the wild.

aarongray 5y ago

Humans don't have to bioengineer a weaponized virus on purpose for a lab to be what created the virus. One common thing that happens in these research labs is that viruses can jump from one lab culture to another and swap genetic material to make hybrids that are more contagious for example. This might explain the furin cleavage site in the spike protein that helps SARS-CoV-2 pry its way into human cells. Further reading here: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/03/18/1021030/coronavirus-leak-wuhan-lab-scientists-conspiracy/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/03/18/1021030/coronavi...

goldcd 5y ago

Agreed - but I'd take it further. As a hypothetical let's assume this disease was created, enhanced, released and let's even say all of this was done deliberately with malice of forethought. Doesn't alter a thing - our collective response was 'C-'