4 ms·

Can you elaborate this a little?

bobthepanda 5y ago
A key point of Brexit is to "restore sovereignty." At least some of that ire is directed at the ECHR, which can issue rulings that override British rulings and parliament. One of the examples of this occurring is when the ECHR overturned a British ban on voting for prisoners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirst_v_United_Kingdom_(No_2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirst_v_United_Kingdom_(No_2) Like many things independence from the ECHR has not actually happened yet. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=7e0577d5-e617-471a-8e00-5c964741965c https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=7e0577d5-e617...
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  (it's worth nothing that ruling was in 2005 and prisoners still can't vote so it's not as much of an override as people might imagine)
- kergonath 5y ago
  > Like many things independence from the ECHR has not actually happened yet. Independence from the ECHR does not follow from leaving the EU. To get out of the European Convention on Human Rights, the UK would have to leave the Council of Europe. The Convention is also in the Brexit agreement. Though of course whether the tories will follow the provisions of the treaties they sign is another matter.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    I know that but that's certainly not what was sold. The link I provided says as much.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      Indeed. Well, I didn’t know you knew but the article said as much. I just wanted to put it explicitly here. Some other comments here show that it is still a common misconception.
- nojokes 5y ago
  Interesting. But UK was not the only country in Europe that does not allow inmates to vote. The list includes Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Liechtenstein and Russia. Three of them belong to EU and do not plan to leave or change their stance on this issue. Allowing inmates to vote is a strange proposal for me. Could we then argue that a leader of a criminal organization should be able to keep leading it from the prison? Eliminating the imprisoned from the society is one of the core principles of the imprisonment and it feels therefore counter productive to let inmates to vote, especially on local government election where a single vote counts the most. Now if imprisonment would be altered for example to an involuntary reeducation and readaptation program, then keeping the right to vote would make much more sense.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The EHCR is not saying that all prisoners should always be able to vote, but that a blanket ban on prisoner voting without considering the circumstances or whether or not it is proportionate violates human rights. Wikipedia has this to say on the topic, at least in the US: > Opponents have argued that such disfranchisement restricts and conflicts with principles of universal suffrage.[5] It can affect civic and communal participation in general.[1] Opponents argue that felony disenfranchisement can create political incentives to skew criminal law in favor of disproportionately targeting groups who are political opponents of those who hold power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_t... One can plainly see that in the US this has a highly racial component. It's not hard to see how this could be turned against any group of "others" targeted by the government. Humans Rights Watch, 1998: https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/vote/usvot98o-01.htm https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/vote/usvot98o-0... > State disenfranchisement laws have a dramatically disproportionate racial impact. Thirteen percent of all adult black men—1.4 million—are disenfranchised, representing one-third of the total disenfranchised population and reflecting a rate of disenfranchisement that is seven times the national average. Election voting statistics offer an approximation of the political importance of black disenfranchisement: 1.4 million black men are disenfranchised compared to 4.6 million black men who voted in 1996.23
LatteLazy 5y ago
We're sick of having rights and we've had enough of EU monsters telling us we can't all die from drinking posion. What is this, Nazi Germany? - standard brexiteer position despite the ECHRs not actually being an EU body.

A key point of Brexit is to "restore sovereignty." At least some of that ire is directed at the ECHR, which can issue rulings that override British rulings and parliament. One of the examples of this occurring is when the ECHR overturned a British ban on voting for prisoners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirst_v_United_Kingdom_(No_2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirst_v_United_Kingdom_(No_2) Like many things independence from the ECHR has not actually happened yet. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=7e0577d5-e617-471a-8e00-5c964741965c https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=7e0577d5-e617...

LatteLazy 5y ago
(it's worth nothing that ruling was in 2005 and prisoners still can't vote so it's not as much of an override as people might imagine)
kergonath 5y ago
> Like many things independence from the ECHR has not actually happened yet. Independence from the ECHR does not follow from leaving the EU. To get out of the European Convention on Human Rights, the UK would have to leave the Council of Europe. The Convention is also in the Brexit agreement. Though of course whether the tories will follow the provisions of the treaties they sign is another matter.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  I know that but that's certainly not what was sold. The link I provided says as much.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    Indeed. Well, I didn’t know you knew but the article said as much. I just wanted to put it explicitly here. Some other comments here show that it is still a common misconception.
nojokes 5y ago
Interesting. But UK was not the only country in Europe that does not allow inmates to vote. The list includes Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Liechtenstein and Russia. Three of them belong to EU and do not plan to leave or change their stance on this issue. Allowing inmates to vote is a strange proposal for me. Could we then argue that a leader of a criminal organization should be able to keep leading it from the prison? Eliminating the imprisoned from the society is one of the core principles of the imprisonment and it feels therefore counter productive to let inmates to vote, especially on local government election where a single vote counts the most. Now if imprisonment would be altered for example to an involuntary reeducation and readaptation program, then keeping the right to vote would make much more sense.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The EHCR is not saying that all prisoners should always be able to vote, but that a blanket ban on prisoner voting without considering the circumstances or whether or not it is proportionate violates human rights. Wikipedia has this to say on the topic, at least in the US: > Opponents have argued that such disfranchisement restricts and conflicts with principles of universal suffrage.[5] It can affect civic and communal participation in general.[1] Opponents argue that felony disenfranchisement can create political incentives to skew criminal law in favor of disproportionately targeting groups who are political opponents of those who hold power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_t... One can plainly see that in the US this has a highly racial component. It's not hard to see how this could be turned against any group of "others" targeted by the government. Humans Rights Watch, 1998: https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/vote/usvot98o-01.htm https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/vote/usvot98o-0... > State disenfranchisement laws have a dramatically disproportionate racial impact. Thirteen percent of all adult black men—1.4 million—are disenfranchised, representing one-third of the total disenfranchised population and reflecting a rate of disenfranchisement that is seven times the national average. Election voting statistics offer an approximation of the political importance of black disenfranchisement: 1.4 million black men are disenfranchised compared to 4.6 million black men who voted in 1996.23

LatteLazy 5y ago

We're sick of having rights and we've had enough of EU monsters telling us we can't all die from drinking posion. What is this, Nazi Germany? - standard brexiteer position despite the ECHRs not actually being an EU body.