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As a former Swift developer, WWDC always brought great joy and interest from me. Apple always showcases some nifty features (their WWDC end up becoming the de f

As a former Swift developer, WWDC always brought great joy and interest from me. Apple always showcases some nifty features (their WWDC end up becoming the de facto documentation for their API, which is a reflection of the quality of the videos and perversely the lack of quality of their documentation). I know a lot of people complain about the 99$ developer fee each year, but Apple in my humble opinion has the hands down best APIs currently for mobile / touch systems. For example, I created my own music app within a day. And WWDC is the heart of showcasing their features for the year to come. I don’t program for IOS anymore, but will watch from a far distance. I’m all in on linux these days!

faeyanpiraat 5y ago
How can you make money on linux? Correction: I understood the original comment as developing software for linux and getting paid for it, and not using it to make web apps, doing web development is platform independent obviously..
- math-dev 5y ago
  Not easy at all, but I have a day job (outside of IT). The way would be to build web apps / SaaS and also move more into B2B as consumer facing software would be better built natively for their target operating systems (Apple / Windows / etc) I’m moving more into technical software, so I couldn’t afford more than half my potential user base saying Oh I don’t have a Mac
  - emsy 5y ago
    Not easy? The internet basically runs on linux
    - math-dev 5y ago
      Yes but for the single programmer working by himself or herself, its much more palatable to build an app for iOS / MacOS and monetize from it. I believe that is the direction of the parent comment that I replied to. Many things run on linux but they are also very big softwares run by large teams
    - dylan604 5y ago
      If a vendor runs a website to sell their wares that happens to run on linux, then yes it's "easy" to make money on linux. If you are a developer trying to make money on some software you've created specifically for linux, then it's a different thing entirely.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > How can you make money on linux? Doesn't the vast majority of the world's commercial software run on Linux?
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    I’m skeptic of that. Adobe, Oracle, Altium, and MANY other enterprise level software suites are Windows only.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      You mean desktop software? What proportion of software use is that? Absolutely tiny, I'd imagine.
  - CyberDildonics 5y ago
    Why would you think that?
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      What do you think it's running on? Data centres full of Macs and Windows machines?
      - CyberDildonics 5y ago
        Why would most commercial software be on data center computers? Where do these assumptions come from?
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        I don't understand - do you think most services are run from someone's random desktop? That's not the way it works in the real world.
        CyberDildonics 5y ago
- KMnO4 5y ago
  Be a web developer. Web works just fine on Linux.
- hatsubai 5y ago
  While not exactly being what you're referring to (I believe you're solely referring to something akin to enterprise-esque application development), there are many jobs out there for those of us who build entire distros for public (and private) entities to consume. This ranges from automotive, to defense, to open source OSes like Ubuntu, SUSE, CentOS, etc.
- shepting 5y ago
  I used to work at a company in the chip-design software space that built Linux-only software for $100k/user/year, so there's definitely money to be made for Linux (even if it happens to be niche software).
allenu 5y ago
I think I'm biased because I've been working in their ecosystem for a decade now, but I absolutely agree. I think they've done a generally good job of updating and deprecating APIs. The designs for their common UI components is consistent, making it easy to build things once you know the basic patterns. The only complaint I have is when you get down to issues with layout and animations not working as expected, it's incredibly hard to debug what's causing it since it's in the "magic" part of the UI frameworks. Often, some re-shuffling of main DispatchQueue steps fixes things up.
adamnemecek 5y ago
I used to have the same opinion but I've realized that Apple APIs are for a particular type of an app. It can get very restrictive very fast. I have since moved on to building my own GUIs with Rust. But I that my app has different requirements than most.
- math-dev 5y ago
  Yeah basically Apple funnels you into their vision and WWDC is a great predictor of the future changes in the apps on the platform. Its part of the appeal of Apple’s ecosystem - the very high level of standardisation, although it obviously has its drawbacks as you have mentioned
sarsway 5y ago
True, the APIs are usually top notch, but I really hope SwiftUI will get another revision or something. It looks good on paper, but you constantly run into things that are really weird, odd, and feel like hacks. State management is too complicated as well.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I'm curious to hear about people's impressions of Swift the language. I haven't used it, but I'm keeping my eye on it, especially if it ever properly makes the leap out of the Apple ecosystem and into general purpose computing (yes, I'm aware that there are efforts, but to my knowledge none have resulted in many commercially successful applications--i.e., it isn't "mainstream" yet).
  - math-dev 5y ago
    I will let others more qualified opine, but for me it was quite easy to use. I think Android has Kotlin, and imo Swift & Kotlin are not too different, which makes it easier for someone trying to build across two different platforms. I like Swift’s use of generics and protocols (can’t remember if I am using the right terms), but I really didn’t like some of the more recent changes that obscured parts of the language behind unnecessarily obtuse DSLs. That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future. These days I have been abducted by aliens, extra terrestrial beings, and program exclusively in Common Lisp, with its secret alien technology. Now THAT is a language I recommend, its simply amazing to me :)
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future FWIW I've used Python and C++ the most, and I deeply dislike them. :)
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      One of the biggest differences between Swift and Kotlin in my day to day is that breakpoints/debugging in Kotlin are glacially slow compared to the same in Swift (which itself is a fair deal more slow than debugging Objective-C). I'm not sure if this is due to JVM baggage or what, but it can make chasing down bugs in Android rather painful, slowing methods that normally run in a fraction of a second to take several minutes.
shadowgovt 5y ago
As a fellow former fee-paid developer, they'll get another $99 from me for the privilege of writing software that benefits their ecosystem when they dig up my corpse and pull it from the wallet I was buried with... ... but I still agree, it's to my loss. Damn good APIs, damn good integrated user experience. I decided I didn't want to feed the beast, but it's a really good beast.

faeyanpiraat 5y ago

How can you make money on linux? Correction: I understood the original comment as developing software for linux and getting paid for it, and not using it to make web apps, doing web development is platform independent obviously..

math-dev 5y ago
Not easy at all, but I have a day job (outside of IT). The way would be to build web apps / SaaS and also move more into B2B as consumer facing software would be better built natively for their target operating systems (Apple / Windows / etc) I’m moving more into technical software, so I couldn’t afford more than half my potential user base saying Oh I don’t have a Mac
- emsy 5y ago
  Not easy? The internet basically runs on linux
  - math-dev 5y ago
    Yes but for the single programmer working by himself or herself, its much more palatable to build an app for iOS / MacOS and monetize from it. I believe that is the direction of the parent comment that I replied to. Many things run on linux but they are also very big softwares run by large teams
  - dylan604 5y ago
    If a vendor runs a website to sell their wares that happens to run on linux, then yes it's "easy" to make money on linux. If you are a developer trying to make money on some software you've created specifically for linux, then it's a different thing entirely.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> How can you make money on linux? Doesn't the vast majority of the world's commercial software run on Linux?
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  I’m skeptic of that. Adobe, Oracle, Altium, and MANY other enterprise level software suites are Windows only.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    You mean desktop software? What proportion of software use is that? Absolutely tiny, I'd imagine.
- CyberDildonics 5y ago
  Why would you think that?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    What do you think it's running on? Data centres full of Macs and Windows machines?
    - CyberDildonics 5y ago
      Why would most commercial software be on data center computers? Where do these assumptions come from?
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        I don't understand - do you think most services are run from someone's random desktop? That's not the way it works in the real world.
        CyberDildonics 5y ago
KMnO4 5y ago
Be a web developer. Web works just fine on Linux.
hatsubai 5y ago
While not exactly being what you're referring to (I believe you're solely referring to something akin to enterprise-esque application development), there are many jobs out there for those of us who build entire distros for public (and private) entities to consume. This ranges from automotive, to defense, to open source OSes like Ubuntu, SUSE, CentOS, etc.
shepting 5y ago
I used to work at a company in the chip-design software space that built Linux-only software for $100k/user/year, so there's definitely money to be made for Linux (even if it happens to be niche software).

allenu 5y ago

I think I'm biased because I've been working in their ecosystem for a decade now, but I absolutely agree. I think they've done a generally good job of updating and deprecating APIs. The designs for their common UI components is consistent, making it easy to build things once you know the basic patterns. The only complaint I have is when you get down to issues with layout and animations not working as expected, it's incredibly hard to debug what's causing it since it's in the "magic" part of the UI frameworks. Often, some re-shuffling of main DispatchQueue steps fixes things up.

adamnemecek 5y ago

I used to have the same opinion but I've realized that Apple APIs are for a particular type of an app. It can get very restrictive very fast. I have since moved on to building my own GUIs with Rust. But I that my app has different requirements than most.

math-dev 5y ago
Yeah basically Apple funnels you into their vision and WWDC is a great predictor of the future changes in the apps on the platform. Its part of the appeal of Apple’s ecosystem - the very high level of standardisation, although it obviously has its drawbacks as you have mentioned

sarsway 5y ago

True, the APIs are usually top notch, but I really hope SwiftUI will get another revision or something. It looks good on paper, but you constantly run into things that are really weird, odd, and feel like hacks. State management is too complicated as well.

throwaway894345 5y ago
I'm curious to hear about people's impressions of Swift the language. I haven't used it, but I'm keeping my eye on it, especially if it ever properly makes the leap out of the Apple ecosystem and into general purpose computing (yes, I'm aware that there are efforts, but to my knowledge none have resulted in many commercially successful applications--i.e., it isn't "mainstream" yet).
- math-dev 5y ago
  I will let others more qualified opine, but for me it was quite easy to use. I think Android has Kotlin, and imo Swift & Kotlin are not too different, which makes it easier for someone trying to build across two different platforms. I like Swift’s use of generics and protocols (can’t remember if I am using the right terms), but I really didn’t like some of the more recent changes that obscured parts of the language behind unnecessarily obtuse DSLs. That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future. These days I have been abducted by aliens, extra terrestrial beings, and program exclusively in Common Lisp, with its secret alien technology. Now THAT is a language I recommend, its simply amazing to me :)
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future FWIW I've used Python and C++ the most, and I deeply dislike them. :)
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    One of the biggest differences between Swift and Kotlin in my day to day is that breakpoints/debugging in Kotlin are glacially slow compared to the same in Swift (which itself is a fair deal more slow than debugging Objective-C). I'm not sure if this is due to JVM baggage or what, but it can make chasing down bugs in Android rather painful, slowing methods that normally run in a fraction of a second to take several minutes.

shadowgovt 5y ago

As a fellow former fee-paid developer, they'll get another $99 from me for the privilege of writing software that benefits their ecosystem when they dig up my corpse and pull it from the wallet I was buried with... ... but I still agree, it's to my loss. Damn good APIs, damn good integrated user experience. I decided I didn't want to feed the beast, but it's a really good beast.