7 ms·

As a US taxpayer who sees the fraud, abuse, and general mismanagement of my tax money why would I willingly support the same government getting more? It is inc

by zionic 5y ago

As a US taxpayer who sees the fraud, abuse, and general mismanagement of my tax money why would I willingly support the same government getting more? It is incredibly depressing how little I get from the government vs how much they take from me. The entire system is a sham and I honestly don't want to support it anymore. I'm working as hard as I can to try and escape it at the earliest possible moment.

thebooktocome 5y ago
Where are you immigrating to that doesn't "mismanage" tax revenue?
- zionic 5y ago
  At this point mars is looking pretty comfy.
jsnnxjsn 5y ago
The US is actually not that bad. One thing I think many ppl who have not spent time in developing countries overlook is how much stuff just works in the US. Compared to most EU countries US taxes are much lower. People like to point to Singapore as low tax example, but the difference in scale is such that the comparison is not meaningful.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  >"I think many ppl who have not spent time" Please just write out the word "people". You're already using full words and normal punctuation everywhere else.
HWR_14 5y ago
There is some fraud and abuse, of course. And the huge numbers involved mean that even a small percentage of fraud is a huge number. But there never seems to be any statistics that back up the assertion that government (in general) or the US government (in particular) produces outrageous amount of fraud or abuse.
- disabled 5y ago
  That is correct, and many of my family members are American accountants and/or CPAs. I suspect that this individual is mixing "fraud and abuse" for "things I don't like and/or agree with paying Uncle Sam [the US government taxman] for". But, that is just a part of life for just about everyone who pays taxes. If the above individual wants to see widespread corruption, you may want to check out some European Union countries that have this culture. Croatia is a good example, where nepotism is the modus operandi, as in whom you know will get you places in society. Bulgaria is also a great example.
  - foobarian 5y ago
    > Croatia is a good example When I think of a country like Croatia, I like to compare it to some locale in the US with a similar total pop (4-5M?). Things start to make more sense then, that's a smallish metro region where that kind of networking is more common.
  - sagarm 5y ago
    > nepotism is the modus operandi It's pretty clear that a huge chunk of the US doesn't consider nepotism corruption, given the complete lack of repercussions to Trump for hiring his family into the White House.
    - disabled 5y ago
      Agreed. I am sorry that you are getting downvoted.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  But there never seems to be any statistics Ever heard of the Pentagon? Here's a good start: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/pentagon-audit-budget-fraud/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/pentagon-audit-bud...
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    It's a little difficult to even understand what they're accusing the government of. The Army had a budget of $111 billion but spent $2.7 trillion and no one noticed? Really? That just doesn't pass the smell test. Most likely, they're misinterpreting something. I will say that looking up the results of the more recent audits (2020), the summaries frequently talking about failing audits but also of uncovering zero evidence of fraud.
dmautz 5y ago
Although there is mismanagement, fraud, and abuse sometimes the alternative, not having that service, is worse. There is a balance usually.
- zionic 5y ago
  > not having that service, is worse. Is it really? We could eliminate entire sectors of the federal government and your average person would have no clue. Why do we need 18 intelligence agencies? Why do we need 13 carrier battle groups? What, exactly, do our 100+ overseas bases do for the average tax payer? None of it makes sense in a supposedly representative government where those who slave away and pay for it get a say in how things are run, or where their collective effort is spent. The current distribution however makes perfect sense if said representative government is an illusion and the taxpayers instead really work to supply the whims of an unelected and unaccountable few. They want to play the great game, and you're gonna go to work to pay for it or we'll send men with guns to your house to take you away. This underlying threat of violence underpins every aspect of our civilization.
  - dmautz 5y ago
    This is why I used the word sometimes. Obviously the whole military industrial complex is the worst example. As for the philosophical argument that they take my money by force, I just don't get it. This is the best way we have found to have a civilized society so far. Going far in either direction communism or anarchy is not a good solution. You have to also consider reality when arguing policy.
    - zionic 5y ago
      >As for the philosophical argument that they take my money by force, I just don't get it. "No taxation without representation" was one of the core driving motivations behind the American revolution. The problem is that I, and I suspect a growing number of others, have completely and totally lost faith in my government to represent my interests while taxing me. The "men with guns" line is just to reinforce that I have no choice in the matter, they are free to do whatever they want with zero accountability and I have to pay them or they send me to jail.
somethingwitty1 5y ago
I always find this kind of thought interesting. The government provides a ton of things. Do you use public roads or sidewalks? Do you live, work or shop in a structure that adheres to building codes? Do you have power? Do you have access to the internet? Do you enjoy food that doesn't kill you? So many of these things wouldn't be possible for the general population without government. It takes money to operate a government. I share the frustration that tax money isn't always (often) spent effectively, but then I ask...what have I done? what would I do differently? At the end of the day, I'm not that interested in doing these things. Sure, I like to complain to my inner circle about how I could do it better, but I've not actually gotten involved. The most I do is vote for people that (on the surface) aren't unhinged and trying to mostly do good, rather than buying into political ideology. So avoiding paying taxes or escaping would just be selfish for someone in my position. Paying these taxes doesn't measurably impact my overall well-being.
- x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
  Everything you described is done with less than 15% of total spending budget that the U.S. currently allocates. The vast majority goes to paying for military spending and benefits to people who pay very little tax.
  - disabled 5y ago
    > benefits to people who pay very little tax This is extremely misinformed. Social Security Retirement, Survivors, and Disability Insurance are entitlement programs, and by far account for the vast majority of this budget (along with the Medicare that most of these individuals are entitled to have). You do not have a right to it, and you are obligated to participate in the insurance program by paying taxes. They are payed for by the individual worker and in some cases, partially, by the employer, via FICA taxes deducted from your US paycheck. Other taxes may be withheld from your paycheck, which lower income individuals will get money back from the IRS for, upon filing their taxes. But, this is not the case for FICA taxes. The issue is that actuaries have not properly estimated the costs of things like Medicare, and then Congress has really never updated the tax code to account for proper FICA taxes for future projections.
jhedwards 5y ago
I'm surprised to hear this sentiment, but honestly I think there's a huge amount that the government does that is invisible to most citizens. When I lived in China, I was shocked not by how controlled it was (which is what I expected given the western vision of China) but by how chaotic and uncontrolled it was compared to the US. Everything from food, health, and safety inspection, to the enforcement of traffic laws, the regulation of lenders and financial products, academic integrity, I could go on forever. I became aware of these things only when I lived in a place that lacked them.
- zionic 5y ago
  >I'm surprised to hear this sentiment, but honestly I think there's a huge amount that the government does that is invisible to most citizens. It's invisible because it provides no true value to them. Right now you and I are paying for some NSA hacker to compromise American telecom networks, 13 carrier battle groups to put around the ocean doing nothing, literal armies of people in a hundred plus bases on literally every continent that provide NEGATIVE value to your average person on the street, and so much more. Your car has broken down and you can't afford to fix it, while the government has taken ten grand from you in the last 12 months that could have purchased you a new car. But it's ok, some overpaid bureaucrats are making real progress in abstract geopolitical interests in a country you can't even find on a map! It's a simple example, but people really underestimate how much more they'd have in their pocket if the government wasn't siphoning off cash at every step on the economic cycle. Look at the number of people struggling, and imagine how much we could relieve that by simply stealing less from them.
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    If the US government is taking $10k in taxes from you, you're making over $80k a year.
    - zionic 5y ago
      >If the US government is taking $10k in taxes from you, you're making over $80k a year. This is an extreme lower bound looking only at FICA. In reality you have: -FICA -State income tax -Local taxes for your city -Social security and medicare tax -Sales tax at point of purchase -Property taxes (directly if you own a home, indirectly + margin if you rent) -Gas tax -Vehicle registration fees/taxes when purchasing -The payroll taxes your employer pays for paying you, directly suppressing your income/earning potential. -A whole host of taxes on any capital gains, inheritance, gifts, your phone bill, the list goes on and on. When you _only_ look at your tax burden in terms of what gets deducted from your check you get a highly misleading figure. This doesn't even factor in what happens when the gov inflates the currency and "taxes" your cash holdings.
thegreatpeter 5y ago
It sounds like you should do some research and see what the govt actually provides for you!
- missedthecue 5y ago
  I'm just happy we don't get everything we pay for
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  The government does a whole lot of things, but nothing particularly well. Furthermore, the government rarely provides anything itself because what it actually does is hire contractors to do things on its behalf.

by zionic 5y ago

thebooktocome 5y ago

Where are you immigrating to that doesn't "mismanage" tax revenue?

zionic 5y ago
At this point mars is looking pretty comfy.

jsnnxjsn 5y ago

The US is actually not that bad. One thing I think many ppl who have not spent time in developing countries overlook is how much stuff just works in the US. Compared to most EU countries US taxes are much lower. People like to point to Singapore as low tax example, but the difference in scale is such that the comparison is not meaningful.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"I think many ppl who have not spent time" Please just write out the word "people". You're already using full words and normal punctuation everywhere else.

HWR_14 5y ago

There is some fraud and abuse, of course. And the huge numbers involved mean that even a small percentage of fraud is a huge number. But there never seems to be any statistics that back up the assertion that government (in general) or the US government (in particular) produces outrageous amount of fraud or abuse.

disabled 5y ago
That is correct, and many of my family members are American accountants and/or CPAs. I suspect that this individual is mixing "fraud and abuse" for "things I don't like and/or agree with paying Uncle Sam [the US government taxman] for". But, that is just a part of life for just about everyone who pays taxes. If the above individual wants to see widespread corruption, you may want to check out some European Union countries that have this culture. Croatia is a good example, where nepotism is the modus operandi, as in whom you know will get you places in society. Bulgaria is also a great example.
- foobarian 5y ago
  > Croatia is a good example When I think of a country like Croatia, I like to compare it to some locale in the US with a similar total pop (4-5M?). Things start to make more sense then, that's a smallish metro region where that kind of networking is more common.
- sagarm 5y ago
  > nepotism is the modus operandi It's pretty clear that a huge chunk of the US doesn't consider nepotism corruption, given the complete lack of repercussions to Trump for hiring his family into the White House.
  - disabled 5y ago
    Agreed. I am sorry that you are getting downvoted.
JohnWhigham 5y ago
But there never seems to be any statistics Ever heard of the Pentagon? Here's a good start: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/pentagon-audit-budget-fraud/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/pentagon-audit-bud...
- HWR_14 5y ago
  It's a little difficult to even understand what they're accusing the government of. The Army had a budget of $111 billion but spent $2.7 trillion and no one noticed? Really? That just doesn't pass the smell test. Most likely, they're misinterpreting something. I will say that looking up the results of the more recent audits (2020), the summaries frequently talking about failing audits but also of uncovering zero evidence of fraud.

dmautz 5y ago

Although there is mismanagement, fraud, and abuse sometimes the alternative, not having that service, is worse. There is a balance usually.

zionic 5y ago
> not having that service, is worse. Is it really? We could eliminate entire sectors of the federal government and your average person would have no clue. Why do we need 18 intelligence agencies? Why do we need 13 carrier battle groups? What, exactly, do our 100+ overseas bases do for the average tax payer? None of it makes sense in a supposedly representative government where those who slave away and pay for it get a say in how things are run, or where their collective effort is spent. The current distribution however makes perfect sense if said representative government is an illusion and the taxpayers instead really work to supply the whims of an unelected and unaccountable few. They want to play the great game, and you're gonna go to work to pay for it or we'll send men with guns to your house to take you away. This underlying threat of violence underpins every aspect of our civilization.
- dmautz 5y ago
  This is why I used the word sometimes. Obviously the whole military industrial complex is the worst example. As for the philosophical argument that they take my money by force, I just don't get it. This is the best way we have found to have a civilized society so far. Going far in either direction communism or anarchy is not a good solution. You have to also consider reality when arguing policy.
  - zionic 5y ago
    >As for the philosophical argument that they take my money by force, I just don't get it. "No taxation without representation" was one of the core driving motivations behind the American revolution. The problem is that I, and I suspect a growing number of others, have completely and totally lost faith in my government to represent my interests while taxing me. The "men with guns" line is just to reinforce that I have no choice in the matter, they are free to do whatever they want with zero accountability and I have to pay them or they send me to jail.

somethingwitty1 5y ago

I always find this kind of thought interesting. The government provides a ton of things. Do you use public roads or sidewalks? Do you live, work or shop in a structure that adheres to building codes? Do you have power? Do you have access to the internet? Do you enjoy food that doesn't kill you? So many of these things wouldn't be possible for the general population without government. It takes money to operate a government. I share the frustration that tax money isn't always (often) spent effectively, but then I ask...what have I done? what would I do differently? At the end of the day, I'm not that interested in doing these things. Sure, I like to complain to my inner circle about how I could do it better, but I've not actually gotten involved. The most I do is vote for people that (on the surface) aren't unhinged and trying to mostly do good, rather than buying into political ideology. So avoiding paying taxes or escaping would just be selfish for someone in my position. Paying these taxes doesn't measurably impact my overall well-being.

x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
Everything you described is done with less than 15% of total spending budget that the U.S. currently allocates. The vast majority goes to paying for military spending and benefits to people who pay very little tax.
- disabled 5y ago
  > benefits to people who pay very little tax This is extremely misinformed. Social Security Retirement, Survivors, and Disability Insurance are entitlement programs, and by far account for the vast majority of this budget (along with the Medicare that most of these individuals are entitled to have). You do not have a right to it, and you are obligated to participate in the insurance program by paying taxes. They are payed for by the individual worker and in some cases, partially, by the employer, via FICA taxes deducted from your US paycheck. Other taxes may be withheld from your paycheck, which lower income individuals will get money back from the IRS for, upon filing their taxes. But, this is not the case for FICA taxes. The issue is that actuaries have not properly estimated the costs of things like Medicare, and then Congress has really never updated the tax code to account for proper FICA taxes for future projections.

jhedwards 5y ago

I'm surprised to hear this sentiment, but honestly I think there's a huge amount that the government does that is invisible to most citizens. When I lived in China, I was shocked not by how controlled it was (which is what I expected given the western vision of China) but by how chaotic and uncontrolled it was compared to the US. Everything from food, health, and safety inspection, to the enforcement of traffic laws, the regulation of lenders and financial products, academic integrity, I could go on forever. I became aware of these things only when I lived in a place that lacked them.

zionic 5y ago
>I'm surprised to hear this sentiment, but honestly I think there's a huge amount that the government does that is invisible to most citizens. It's invisible because it provides no true value to them. Right now you and I are paying for some NSA hacker to compromise American telecom networks, 13 carrier battle groups to put around the ocean doing nothing, literal armies of people in a hundred plus bases on literally every continent that provide NEGATIVE value to your average person on the street, and so much more. Your car has broken down and you can't afford to fix it, while the government has taken ten grand from you in the last 12 months that could have purchased you a new car. But it's ok, some overpaid bureaucrats are making real progress in abstract geopolitical interests in a country you can't even find on a map! It's a simple example, but people really underestimate how much more they'd have in their pocket if the government wasn't siphoning off cash at every step on the economic cycle. Look at the number of people struggling, and imagine how much we could relieve that by simply stealing less from them.
- mrguyorama 5y ago
  If the US government is taking $10k in taxes from you, you're making over $80k a year.
  - zionic 5y ago
    >If the US government is taking $10k in taxes from you, you're making over $80k a year. This is an extreme lower bound looking only at FICA. In reality you have: -FICA -State income tax -Local taxes for your city -Social security and medicare tax -Sales tax at point of purchase -Property taxes (directly if you own a home, indirectly + margin if you rent) -Gas tax -Vehicle registration fees/taxes when purchasing -The payroll taxes your employer pays for paying you, directly suppressing your income/earning potential. -A whole host of taxes on any capital gains, inheritance, gifts, your phone bill, the list goes on and on. When you _only_ look at your tax burden in terms of what gets deducted from your check you get a highly misleading figure. This doesn't even factor in what happens when the gov inflates the currency and "taxes" your cash holdings.

thegreatpeter 5y ago

It sounds like you should do some research and see what the govt actually provides for you!

missedthecue 5y ago
I'm just happy we don't get everything we pay for
BitwiseFool 5y ago
The government does a whole lot of things, but nothing particularly well. Furthermore, the government rarely provides anything itself because what it actually does is hire contractors to do things on its behalf.