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> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of th

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. >And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: > >- Go -> Enclosing Folder > >- Cmd-Up > >- Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree > >- Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree Several ways, none being the correct one. Nice. I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous.

bayindirh 5y ago
> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think there's no right or wrongs in keyboard shortcuts, but there are traditions. Both Windows and macOS has their distinct histories and traditions with inspirations from each other. I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key, you inferior OS-Wannabe?" Some machines work different from each other. Sun and other Unixen had super, hyper and meta layers on their keyboards with hundreds or more shortcuts. They weren't wrong either, just different, and IMHO cool. > Several ways, none being the correct one... Again, if we're going to throw stones, I can name a lot of shortcomings in Windows from file names to other small/backward stuff, but it'd be equally wrong. They are just different systems and have different choices. > I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous. Just open the help menu of an app and write to command you want to find. It'll show it on the menu. Pressing enter will directly run that action.
- throwaddzuzxd 5y ago
  >I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key" Well actually I think the control/option/command paradigm makes more sense than ctrl/alt/super, so yeah, I'd love this being copied by Microsoft. It's harder than just supporting Cmd-X in the Finder though. Adding Cmd-X to Finder is just a net gain, it doesn't even require deprecating or breaking anything. It just brings a standard to an app that should support it.
rsynnott 5y ago
> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else). Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.
- throwaddzuzxd 5y ago
  >I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_. From a UX perspective the answer is pretty clear. Copy/Cut/Paste is the winning paradigm, which empirically makes it the correct way.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    But, again, this isn't really cut and paste at all. It's more like "note position, and _then_ atomically cut and paste". Cutting and pasting files in Windows doesn't work at all like cutting and pasting anything else. Someone who had never used Windows might reasonably expect, on finding 'cutting' a file did something, that if they never pasted the file would just be deleted, because that's how cut and past normally works.
    - prewett 5y ago
      In fact, I have used Windows since 3.11, and until reading your comment I thought that cutting without pasting would delete the file!
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  That's not true at all! The moment you cut a file on windows it is marked as hidden, which makes it disappear with default settings. It's treu that unless you paste it it will remain there in practice, but the UX gets it right. Furthermore, you can cut once and paste to several places, with predictable semantics identical to every other implementation of cut+paste (though performance of the first paste will be different from subsequent ones). Edit: I was entirely wrong about the second part, which does undermine my point considerably.
robertoandred 5y ago
Cmd-X would be inconsistent with every other move/copy action on the Mac. Option is the modifier that switches between them. And what is the "correct" way to go up a folder? What would be easier or more discoverable than Go -> Enclosing Folder?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  A button? Even Unix considers that accessing the parent dir is a fundamental operation that deserves a dedicated file in the API (..) .
  - robertoandred 5y ago
    File in the API?
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      Well, .. is not exactly a file, but it's not exactly an API either, right?
moogleii 5y ago
Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate. In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore. As for folder nav/manipulation, I find Finder to make much greater sense, whereas Explorer was just, this makes sense because it's always been this way (don't get me wrong, Finder has its shortcomings in other areas, although File Preview [space bar] is pretty awesome). Finder: Generally speaking, arrows do everything. * Movement within folder: up/down arrow keys * Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down * Expand/contract a folder: left/right arrow keys * Rename a file/folder: Enter Explorer: * Movement within a folder: up/down arrow keys * Move into a directory / open a file: Enter * Move out of a directory: alt up * Expand/contract a folder: left/right * Rename a file / folder: F2
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore. That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X. So, if you navigate into a folder and select a file that you want somewhere else, you are currently in the best position to decide whether you want the file to stay here as well (copy) or no (cut). Then, you can go somewhere else and just add the file in that location (paste). Furthermore, on Windows you can paste the file to several places, with predictable semantics: the file will be copied to each of those places (though performance of this operation may be suprising). I can't even begin to imagine on Mac if you copy a file the Cmd+opt+v it to multiple places. Does it move it around, deleting it from the previous place where you pressed cmd-opt-v??? Edit: I was entirely wrong about the part about copying to multiple places, which does undermine my point considerably.

bayindirh 5y ago

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think there's no right or wrongs in keyboard shortcuts, but there are traditions. Both Windows and macOS has their distinct histories and traditions with inspirations from each other. I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key, you inferior OS-Wannabe?" Some machines work different from each other. Sun and other Unixen had super, hyper and meta layers on their keyboards with hundreds or more shortcuts. They weren't wrong either, just different, and IMHO cool. > Several ways, none being the correct one... Again, if we're going to throw stones, I can name a lot of shortcomings in Windows from file names to other small/backward stuff, but it'd be equally wrong. They are just different systems and have different choices. > I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous. Just open the help menu of an app and write to command you want to find. It'll show it on the menu. Pressing enter will directly run that action.

throwaddzuzxd 5y ago
>I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key" Well actually I think the control/option/command paradigm makes more sense than ctrl/alt/super, so yeah, I'd love this being copied by Microsoft. It's harder than just supporting Cmd-X in the Finder though. Adding Cmd-X to Finder is just a net gain, it doesn't even require deprecating or breaking anything. It just brings a standard to an app that should support it.

rsynnott 5y ago

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else). Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

throwaddzuzxd 5y ago
>I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_. From a UX perspective the answer is pretty clear. Copy/Cut/Paste is the winning paradigm, which empirically makes it the correct way.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  But, again, this isn't really cut and paste at all. It's more like "note position, and _then_ atomically cut and paste". Cutting and pasting files in Windows doesn't work at all like cutting and pasting anything else. Someone who had never used Windows might reasonably expect, on finding 'cutting' a file did something, that if they never pasted the file would just be deleted, because that's how cut and past normally works.
  - prewett 5y ago
    In fact, I have used Windows since 3.11, and until reading your comment I thought that cutting without pasting would delete the file!
tsimionescu 5y ago
That's not true at all! The moment you cut a file on windows it is marked as hidden, which makes it disappear with default settings. It's treu that unless you paste it it will remain there in practice, but the UX gets it right. Furthermore, you can cut once and paste to several places, with predictable semantics identical to every other implementation of cut+paste (though performance of the first paste will be different from subsequent ones). Edit: I was entirely wrong about the second part, which does undermine my point considerably.

robertoandred 5y ago

Cmd-X would be inconsistent with every other move/copy action on the Mac. Option is the modifier that switches between them. And what is the "correct" way to go up a folder? What would be easier or more discoverable than Go -> Enclosing Folder?

tsimionescu 5y ago
A button? Even Unix considers that accessing the parent dir is a fundamental operation that deserves a dedicated file in the API (..) .
- robertoandred 5y ago
  File in the API?
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Well, .. is not exactly a file, but it's not exactly an API either, right?

moogleii 5y ago

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate. In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore. As for folder nav/manipulation, I find Finder to make much greater sense, whereas Explorer was just, this makes sense because it's always been this way (don't get me wrong, Finder has its shortcomings in other areas, although File Preview [space bar] is pretty awesome). Finder: Generally speaking, arrows do everything. * Movement within folder: up/down arrow keys * Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down * Expand/contract a folder: left/right arrow keys * Rename a file/folder: Enter Explorer: * Movement within a folder: up/down arrow keys * Move into a directory / open a file: Enter * Move out of a directory: alt up * Expand/contract a folder: left/right * Rename a file / folder: F2

tsimionescu 5y ago
> In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore. That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X. So, if you navigate into a folder and select a file that you want somewhere else, you are currently in the best position to decide whether you want the file to stay here as well (copy) or no (cut). Then, you can go somewhere else and just add the file in that location (paste). Furthermore, on Windows you can paste the file to several places, with predictable semantics: the file will be copied to each of those places (though performance of this operation may be suprising). I can't even begin to imagine on Mac if you copy a file the Cmd+opt+v it to multiple places. Does it move it around, deleting it from the previous place where you pressed cmd-opt-v??? Edit: I was entirely wrong about the part about copying to multiple places, which does undermine my point considerably.