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> Or perhaps aesthetics play more a part of mtnbike design than functionality? Nailed it. This is true for almost all bicycle endeavors save actual professiona

> Or perhaps aesthetics play more a part of mtnbike design than functionality? Nailed it. This is true for almost all bicycle endeavors save actual professional racing. Even then, a pro rider that isn't Egan, Sagan, or Froome is going to ride what the factory says to ride. If they (Specialized, Cannondale, Canyon, Etc.) need to pimp a new product, those dudes will pimp the product. Money talks.

SavantIdiot 5y ago
The few years when everyone was using curved and tapered main tubes was like shag rugs and paneling, IMHO. I miss the big fat cannodale brazes, or the Tom Richie flourishes on the headtube and dropouts. But I don't miss needing massive rework to replace a rear derailleur dropout after every crash. :|
bigfudge 5y ago
Disc brakes are exactly this. For racing they are stupid because you don’t need better brakes and spare wheels no longer fit. Only ineos seems to have held out because for stage racing and gt the costs are so much higher. Quickstep used discs first because in one day racing a puncture at the wrong time always meant you lost, so discs didn’t make a material difference.
- vbsteven 5y ago
  Disc brakes have their use on road bikes in bad weather conditions. Descending at 90km/h on wet roads with rim brakes is not fun, especially on full carbon rims. I wish I had them in my race days.
  - mgarfias 5y ago
    Another use: on my oldests bmx race bike, he has a disc brake setup. It is like 300% easier to work on. Pull the axle, and the wheel falls out. No futzing with the caliper to get the wheel off the frame, not concerns about getting the wheel on the exact correct spot.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      Isn't adjusting disc brakes a lot easier too? Adjusting rim brakes seems like a never-ending exercise, and the wheel needs to be perfectly true or it will rub. And changing the brake pads with that nut and stack of weird washers is tedious and error-prone. And the squeaks and squeals—I've tried so hard to get rid of them but they always come back. I'm considering upgrading my hybrid road bike to one with disc brakes just so I never have to deal with rim brakes again. (I currently have a 2015 Trek FX which I otherwise like a lot.)
      - _carbyau_ 5y ago
        I grew up riding bicycles of various types with rim brakes. Same as you, always squealing! In my 20's I learnt to ride motorbikes with associated disc brakes. Then later a mountain bike with rim brakes. Nope, no way, never going there again. Any bicycle I or my family has from now on is disc brakes. They are it, until I die or we find something better. Better capability, easier servicing, more robust in terms of sidestepping rim warp. Better for the rider, better for the mechanic.
  - bch 5y ago
    What I heard is the biggest issue ties in with mentioned (perhaps inadvertently): carbon rims. Asking them to be the braking device (with associated heat-sink requirements) can cause them to catastrophically delaminate. They can’t safely perform that double-duty like aluminium rims can. (Edit: clarity)
- Rantenki 5y ago
  This is easy to objectively disprove. Disc brakes offer better braking power, don't wear as quickly, and don't fade on long hills. They also keep the braking and structural parts of the wheel independent, so a dented rim doesn't prevent the brakes from working, and wear from braking doesn't structurally compromise the wheel. There is a lot of fud about discs in the road-biking circles, but it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. If you have rim brakes, and you like them, then great! Don't malign them because you dislike change though.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    I wasn't saying anything about discs for general use. Specifically for racing, though, you are wrong: many pros are on the record as saying the braking makes little to no difference in a race and the cost of time lost when you can't get a wheel change is huge. It's already happened in multiple races. > Disc brakes offer better braking power, don't wear as quickly, and don't fade on long hills These things are true, but in my experience the limiting factor is almost always grip. I've never been unable to lock up both wheels on road tyres (this is definitely not true off road where the advantage is obvious). This is even more the case in the wet, where disc brakes are touted as even more of an advantage. I do think people often use the straw man of crap cantis or centrpulls on steel rims. On maintenance I think it's less clear cut — if you don't maintain discs regularly they can get sticky and there is _nothing_ more annoying than disc rub, and this is worse on the road than off-road where a bit of grime in discs is to be expected and tolerated (and no worse than mud fouling rim brakes). > Don't malign them because you dislike change though. You've jumped straight to accusing me of being a luddite. I actually don't like the _look_ of discs on road bikes but will get them on my next bike for the increased tyre clearance. But I do have them on all my mountain bikes...
    - Rantenki 5y ago
      I'm not trying to start a flame-war, or accuse you of being a luddite. I was just saying that you were: maligning disc brakes, and didn't like change. The post you replied to was about change for change's (and profit's) sake, to which you responded that that was the case for disc brakes, along with calling them stupid for racing. Again, if you prefer them, aesthetically or otherwise, that's fine. They're not stupid though, or are they a money grab.
asdff 5y ago
This is true for pretty much all sports products. There might be a big tech leap that all manufacturers copy, then stagnation for years masked as incremental improvements that add up to some big change when they really don't. Golf clubs are notorious for actually moving irons down the numbers to fool you into thinking brand new clubs are so much better. You go to a shop and hit your 6 iron on the golf simulator, then you hit a brand new 6 iron and see you hit it further, then you buy the new club thinking all your shots will go farther thanks to modern technology. What you don't realize is that what is called a 6 iron in your new set actually has the exact same specs as your old 4 iron, and might not really go any farther at all when you compare it to your old 4 iron. It's the age old trap of selling beginners gear instead of practice (which makes manufacturers nothing).
- 7952 5y ago
  Hiking products have this problem. They look good in the shop and tick boxes. But a lot of the features are just bad ideas. Weirdly shaped backpacks with small access points that are difficult to get things out of. Light weight zippers that fail easily. "Technical" fabrics that lack permanent water proofing. Expensive boots which will just increase fatigue for most people. With looped lace holes that just degrade.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

The few years when everyone was using curved and tapered main tubes was like shag rugs and paneling, IMHO. I miss the big fat cannodale brazes, or the Tom Richie flourishes on the headtube and dropouts. But I don't miss needing massive rework to replace a rear derailleur dropout after every crash. :|

bigfudge 5y ago

Disc brakes are exactly this. For racing they are stupid because you don’t need better brakes and spare wheels no longer fit. Only ineos seems to have held out because for stage racing and gt the costs are so much higher. Quickstep used discs first because in one day racing a puncture at the wrong time always meant you lost, so discs didn’t make a material difference.

vbsteven 5y ago
Disc brakes have their use on road bikes in bad weather conditions. Descending at 90km/h on wet roads with rim brakes is not fun, especially on full carbon rims. I wish I had them in my race days.
- mgarfias 5y ago
  Another use: on my oldests bmx race bike, he has a disc brake setup. It is like 300% easier to work on. Pull the axle, and the wheel falls out. No futzing with the caliper to get the wheel off the frame, not concerns about getting the wheel on the exact correct spot.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Isn't adjusting disc brakes a lot easier too? Adjusting rim brakes seems like a never-ending exercise, and the wheel needs to be perfectly true or it will rub. And changing the brake pads with that nut and stack of weird washers is tedious and error-prone. And the squeaks and squeals—I've tried so hard to get rid of them but they always come back. I'm considering upgrading my hybrid road bike to one with disc brakes just so I never have to deal with rim brakes again. (I currently have a 2015 Trek FX which I otherwise like a lot.)
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
      I grew up riding bicycles of various types with rim brakes. Same as you, always squealing! In my 20's I learnt to ride motorbikes with associated disc brakes. Then later a mountain bike with rim brakes. Nope, no way, never going there again. Any bicycle I or my family has from now on is disc brakes. They are it, until I die or we find something better. Better capability, easier servicing, more robust in terms of sidestepping rim warp. Better for the rider, better for the mechanic.
- bch 5y ago
  What I heard is the biggest issue ties in with mentioned (perhaps inadvertently): carbon rims. Asking them to be the braking device (with associated heat-sink requirements) can cause them to catastrophically delaminate. They can’t safely perform that double-duty like aluminium rims can. (Edit: clarity)
Rantenki 5y ago
This is easy to objectively disprove. Disc brakes offer better braking power, don't wear as quickly, and don't fade on long hills. They also keep the braking and structural parts of the wheel independent, so a dented rim doesn't prevent the brakes from working, and wear from braking doesn't structurally compromise the wheel. There is a lot of fud about discs in the road-biking circles, but it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. If you have rim brakes, and you like them, then great! Don't malign them because you dislike change though.
- bigfudge 5y ago
  I wasn't saying anything about discs for general use. Specifically for racing, though, you are wrong: many pros are on the record as saying the braking makes little to no difference in a race and the cost of time lost when you can't get a wheel change is huge. It's already happened in multiple races. > Disc brakes offer better braking power, don't wear as quickly, and don't fade on long hills These things are true, but in my experience the limiting factor is almost always grip. I've never been unable to lock up both wheels on road tyres (this is definitely not true off road where the advantage is obvious). This is even more the case in the wet, where disc brakes are touted as even more of an advantage. I do think people often use the straw man of crap cantis or centrpulls on steel rims. On maintenance I think it's less clear cut — if you don't maintain discs regularly they can get sticky and there is _nothing_ more annoying than disc rub, and this is worse on the road than off-road where a bit of grime in discs is to be expected and tolerated (and no worse than mud fouling rim brakes). > Don't malign them because you dislike change though. You've jumped straight to accusing me of being a luddite. I actually don't like the _look_ of discs on road bikes but will get them on my next bike for the increased tyre clearance. But I do have them on all my mountain bikes...
  - Rantenki 5y ago
    I'm not trying to start a flame-war, or accuse you of being a luddite. I was just saying that you were: maligning disc brakes, and didn't like change. The post you replied to was about change for change's (and profit's) sake, to which you responded that that was the case for disc brakes, along with calling them stupid for racing. Again, if you prefer them, aesthetically or otherwise, that's fine. They're not stupid though, or are they a money grab.

asdff 5y ago

This is true for pretty much all sports products. There might be a big tech leap that all manufacturers copy, then stagnation for years masked as incremental improvements that add up to some big change when they really don't. Golf clubs are notorious for actually moving irons down the numbers to fool you into thinking brand new clubs are so much better. You go to a shop and hit your 6 iron on the golf simulator, then you hit a brand new 6 iron and see you hit it further, then you buy the new club thinking all your shots will go farther thanks to modern technology. What you don't realize is that what is called a 6 iron in your new set actually has the exact same specs as your old 4 iron, and might not really go any farther at all when you compare it to your old 4 iron. It's the age old trap of selling beginners gear instead of practice (which makes manufacturers nothing).

7952 5y ago
Hiking products have this problem. They look good in the shop and tick boxes. But a lot of the features are just bad ideas. Weirdly shaped backpacks with small access points that are difficult to get things out of. Light weight zippers that fail easily. "Technical" fabrics that lack permanent water proofing. Expensive boots which will just increase fatigue for most people. With looped lace holes that just degrade.