5 ms·

What's pretty clear is that the small form-factor multi-screen device needs a compelling story to establish value and utility. The Surface Duo looks like a ver

What's pretty clear is that the small form-factor multi-screen device needs a compelling story to establish value and utility. The Surface Duo looks like a very cool device that I would probably never use over a phone with one good screen, more power and a great camera. Similar to tablets, I personally just reach for the phone or the laptop or my TV, and never a tablet. But a Duo released with some more power and some imaginative use cases might start to sell. I think it's a shame that the larger Neo and Windows 10X seem to be dead before arrival, because it might have led to something interesting. But Microsoft has not resolved the conflict between Windows for everyone, and an application store that feels competitive and properly populated, so locked down devices have consistently failed for them. The Duo running Android doesn't have that limitation, so the bigger question might be if Microsoft can do a sufficiently sophisticated job customizing Android, making it feel like something more than just Android, and making it work perfectly with this unique form factor. But it's hard to see the business case for all the resources going into what still feels like a very niche device category.

fullstop 5y ago
I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller. It works quite well on my phone, but the screen is kind of small or my eyes are bad. The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support. I did not appreciate how many tactile cues today's games have until it was missing. For example, in Sea of Thieves, there is a "clunk" vibration when your ship's wheel is centered. It's very difficult to grab the wheel and straighten your heading without the clunk. Visually, the wheel had a center spoke which looks different than the rest, but the wheel rotates several times in a given direction before stopping. If they ever add vibration support, I may purchase an Android tablet with a larger screen.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller. As far as I know, [there is still no tablet-sized controller with proper analog triggers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF-wWUSq3Cc#t=12m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF-wWUSq3Cc#t=12m10s). >The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support. My understanding is that this is an Android issue. Nvidia added vibration support for Shield TV, its Google TV box, but vibration only works on a) GeForce NOW with b) the 2017 Nvidia game controller. Not the 2015 controller, not Xbox One controller, not xCloud, etc.
  - fullstop 5y ago
    I would be propping the tablet up on a table and using an Xbox one controller. I do this with my phone (OnePlus 7t) today, but the screen is a bit small. I'm just waiting for some sort of vibration support before I get a tablet, knowing that it's an Android issue and that a specific Android version may eventually be required in order to use it.
al2o3cr 5y ago
This seems to be the ongoing story with Windows Phone / Surface: interesting and well-made hardware, let down by mediocre software and UX.
- neogodless 5y ago
  I'll disagree with UX on the Windows Phone. I miss it to this day. The problem was 100% insufficient ecosystem support. Friends having social apps I simply couldn't get my hands on (and third-party apps that worked great getting blocked by official sources.) And bank apps that required Android/iOS - the convenience of mobile check deposit can't be overstated in the U.S.! The Surface UX (Windows 10) has improved massively since Windows RT / Windows 8. So I don't think that's to blame, either. But software/ecosystem is everything. And it's what Windows 10 excels at, but every locked-down Windows has failed at.
  - johnvaluk 5y ago
    I wish Microsoft had continued to develop Windows Phone as an alternative to Windows, instead of trying to incorporate some features into Windows as Metro, which met with inevitable backlash. I would have loved to see it evolve into a tablet/touchscreen laptop platform on its own merits.
    - mumblemumble 5y ago
      Indeed, my sense is that Windows Phone 7 was picking up some decent momentum, and then it was scuttled by the Windows 8 initiative. There was probably some guilt by association with the ill-fated desktop OS. But there was also the confusing compatibility story between Windows Phone 7 and Windows Phone 8, which I found to be confusing and slightly intimidating both as someone who was shopping for a phone at the time, and someone who was considering developing an app for Windows Phone. I get what they were trying to do, and it was certainly an interesting and ambitious goal. But they made the same mistake I repeatedly make when I'm trying to kindle a campfire: putting the fire out by throwing way too much wood onto it at the first hint of a visible flame.
  - 5y ago
mumblemumble 5y ago
Every time I revisit the device, I'm just disappointed all over again that it doesn't run Windows 10. This seems like the device that might have justified Windows 8's ill-fated attempt to unify the mobile and desktop operating systems. I see it, and what I want it to be is a dual-function device that works like a tablet when I'm on the train or whatever, but switches into a more PC-style interface when I plug in a monitor and/or connect a keyboard. When I see those dual screens, my mind immediately wants to stick an emacs window or tmux pane on each one, a bluetooth keyboard just below, and still have plenty of space for a notebook and a beverage, all within a cramped coffee shop table.
- bhauer 5y ago
  I would absolutely buy a device like this that ran Windows 10 and could dock, providing an experience like an evolution of the "Continuum" feature seen in Windows 10 Mobile.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  So much this. If it ran Windows 10, I'd not only own it, I'd be excited to own it. There's just nothing exciting about anything iOS or Android is doing. They're just phones. What's frustrating is that Microsoft is in this incredibly deep rut with their OS team and haven't been able to dig themselves out. Each successive alternative flavor of 10 has failed to launch for years, including this month's death of 10X. As much as I'd love a Duo running Windows 10, if it had waited for a Windows OS to run on it, it never would've launched at all.
  - swiley 5y ago
    It's odd that they haven't tried shipping a RedHat/Ubuntu derivative instead then.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      I mean, the issue is that their own previous attempt, Windows Mobile, was a high quality, competent OS platform. And it's largest issue was that you couldn't get Google apps on it because Google's a monopolist. Pushing a different OS that doesn't have Google app support doesn't really move the needle.
truth_ 5y ago
> Similar to tablets, I personally just reach for the phone or the laptop or my TV, and never a tablet. That's an interesting point. I, too, never reach for a tablet. But I use my tablet a lot to read research papers and books- both fiction and nonfiction. So, to me, it is never a replacement for a mobile phone. It does something else. So, if MS or anybody else wants to popularize this form factor, I believe that they would have to convince people of its uses _other than_ as a smartphone, and focus on that.
- hellotomyrars 5y ago
  I use my iPad as a mousepad 95% of the time. It is the most opulent thing I can imagine but most of the time I am either at my computer, which for me is the optimal way to do any real computing, or I'm out and about and I'm not going to carry a full-size tablet, so I use my phone. However when I'm backpacking I will bring the iPad and use it for a map (Much nicer to have the screen real estate compared to the phone and I'm loathe to pull out the paper backup unless I have to). Similarly at night I can use it to watch videos I've downloaded. I very occasionally use it for reference material if I need to look a manual for some piece of equipment since it is nicer to have the bigger screen for that as well, but for normal books I prefer an e-reader (Kobo Libra H20 for me).

fullstop 5y ago

I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller. It works quite well on my phone, but the screen is kind of small or my eyes are bad. The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support. I did not appreciate how many tactile cues today's games have until it was missing. For example, in Sea of Thieves, there is a "clunk" vibration when your ship's wheel is centered. It's very difficult to grab the wheel and straighten your heading without the clunk. Visually, the wheel had a center spoke which looks different than the rest, but the wheel rotates several times in a given direction before stopping. If they ever add vibration support, I may purchase an Android tablet with a larger screen.

TMWNN 5y ago
>I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller. As far as I know, [there is still no tablet-sized controller with proper analog triggers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF-wWUSq3Cc#t=12m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF-wWUSq3Cc#t=12m10s). >The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support. My understanding is that this is an Android issue. Nvidia added vibration support for Shield TV, its Google TV box, but vibration only works on a) GeForce NOW with b) the 2017 Nvidia game controller. Not the 2015 controller, not Xbox One controller, not xCloud, etc.
- fullstop 5y ago
  I would be propping the tablet up on a table and using an Xbox one controller. I do this with my phone (OnePlus 7t) today, but the screen is a bit small. I'm just waiting for some sort of vibration support before I get a tablet, knowing that it's an Android issue and that a specific Android version may eventually be required in order to use it.

al2o3cr 5y ago

This seems to be the ongoing story with Windows Phone / Surface: interesting and well-made hardware, let down by mediocre software and UX.

neogodless 5y ago
I'll disagree with UX on the Windows Phone. I miss it to this day. The problem was 100% insufficient ecosystem support. Friends having social apps I simply couldn't get my hands on (and third-party apps that worked great getting blocked by official sources.) And bank apps that required Android/iOS - the convenience of mobile check deposit can't be overstated in the U.S.! The Surface UX (Windows 10) has improved massively since Windows RT / Windows 8. So I don't think that's to blame, either. But software/ecosystem is everything. And it's what Windows 10 excels at, but every locked-down Windows has failed at.
- johnvaluk 5y ago
  I wish Microsoft had continued to develop Windows Phone as an alternative to Windows, instead of trying to incorporate some features into Windows as Metro, which met with inevitable backlash. I would have loved to see it evolve into a tablet/touchscreen laptop platform on its own merits.
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    Indeed, my sense is that Windows Phone 7 was picking up some decent momentum, and then it was scuttled by the Windows 8 initiative. There was probably some guilt by association with the ill-fated desktop OS. But there was also the confusing compatibility story between Windows Phone 7 and Windows Phone 8, which I found to be confusing and slightly intimidating both as someone who was shopping for a phone at the time, and someone who was considering developing an app for Windows Phone. I get what they were trying to do, and it was certainly an interesting and ambitious goal. But they made the same mistake I repeatedly make when I'm trying to kindle a campfire: putting the fire out by throwing way too much wood onto it at the first hint of a visible flame.
- 5y ago

mumblemumble 5y ago

Every time I revisit the device, I'm just disappointed all over again that it doesn't run Windows 10. This seems like the device that might have justified Windows 8's ill-fated attempt to unify the mobile and desktop operating systems. I see it, and what I want it to be is a dual-function device that works like a tablet when I'm on the train or whatever, but switches into a more PC-style interface when I plug in a monitor and/or connect a keyboard. When I see those dual screens, my mind immediately wants to stick an emacs window or tmux pane on each one, a bluetooth keyboard just below, and still have plenty of space for a notebook and a beverage, all within a cramped coffee shop table.

bhauer 5y ago
I would absolutely buy a device like this that ran Windows 10 and could dock, providing an experience like an evolution of the "Continuum" feature seen in Windows 10 Mobile.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
So much this. If it ran Windows 10, I'd not only own it, I'd be excited to own it. There's just nothing exciting about anything iOS or Android is doing. They're just phones. What's frustrating is that Microsoft is in this incredibly deep rut with their OS team and haven't been able to dig themselves out. Each successive alternative flavor of 10 has failed to launch for years, including this month's death of 10X. As much as I'd love a Duo running Windows 10, if it had waited for a Windows OS to run on it, it never would've launched at all.
- swiley 5y ago
  It's odd that they haven't tried shipping a RedHat/Ubuntu derivative instead then.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    I mean, the issue is that their own previous attempt, Windows Mobile, was a high quality, competent OS platform. And it's largest issue was that you couldn't get Google apps on it because Google's a monopolist. Pushing a different OS that doesn't have Google app support doesn't really move the needle.

truth_ 5y ago

> Similar to tablets, I personally just reach for the phone or the laptop or my TV, and never a tablet. That's an interesting point. I, too, never reach for a tablet. But I use my tablet a lot to read research papers and books- both fiction and nonfiction. So, to me, it is never a replacement for a mobile phone. It does something else. So, if MS or anybody else wants to popularize this form factor, I believe that they would have to convince people of its uses _other than_ as a smartphone, and focus on that.

hellotomyrars 5y ago
I use my iPad as a mousepad 95% of the time. It is the most opulent thing I can imagine but most of the time I am either at my computer, which for me is the optimal way to do any real computing, or I'm out and about and I'm not going to carry a full-size tablet, so I use my phone. However when I'm backpacking I will bring the iPad and use it for a map (Much nicer to have the screen real estate compared to the phone and I'm loathe to pull out the paper backup unless I have to). Similarly at night I can use it to watch videos I've downloaded. I very occasionally use it for reference material if I need to look a manual for some piece of equipment since it is nicer to have the bigger screen for that as well, but for normal books I prefer an e-reader (Kobo Libra H20 for me).