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I still dont get how people pretend Apple cares about privacy. By default Apple devices phone home and collect data on you, and this is not optional, and they

I still dont get how people pretend Apple cares about privacy. By default Apple devices phone home and collect data on you, and this is not optional, and they will hand that data to law enforcement. They also have the ability to change their data handling policieson a whim since there is nobody holding them accountable. THIS IS NOT PRIVACY. Not that windows or android devices are better as they come out of the box, but at least any computer that runs windows can run linux where you have full control, and certain android phones can be rooted/unlocked and flashed with custom roms without google or run firewall apps to block outgoing data.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
You’re in an echo chamber. By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data, but that data can be disabled in Settings. They also upload your files in an encrypted connection (but without end to end encryption) into your iCloud backup, and that can be handed over with a subpoena, but you can disable iCloud backup or simply not pay for it.
- vlunkr 5y ago
  Nothing you said contradicts anything they said. By default, Apple collects all this data.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Read it closely, the poster said it wasn’t optional.
    - ActorNightly 5y ago
      He said it can be disabled in settings, which is not true. Anyone can repeat this experiment at home with a laptop and 2 usb to ethernet adaptors.
- ActorNightly 5y ago
  Nope. There is data that it sends that is non optional. Proof: go into settings and disable every tracking options, and then capture traffic from the device through a router with openwrt running tcpdump or wireshark on a computer with a bridge setup with ip forwarding and iptables rule. Did this experiment already twice to prove to people that Apple device do phone home plenty. Then I repeat the same experiment with my rooted android phone running a custom rom, and people watch the sparse wireshark trace with the only packets being sent are dns then ntp to the android ntp server.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Did you also disable iCloud, Find My network, App Store updates etc. What data are you claiming Apple is sending ?
- saagarjha 5y ago
  > By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data Doesn’t Apple ask you whether you want to enable this when you set up the device?
- kergonath 5y ago
  > By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data, but that data can be disabled in Settings. They also ask during setup and regularly after major updates. I know because I refuse every time. Also, quite often it is opt in, with the box to send information unticked by default.
enraged_camel 5y ago
This is a lot of FUD. Yes, Apple devices do collect some data and phone it home (mostly diagnostic, and iCloud, both of which can be turned off). However, unlike their competitors, Apple does not sell this data to advertisers. And they are just as likely to refuse to work with law enforcement as they are likely to cooperate. How many times has LE demanded that Apple break the encryption on the iPhone of a crime suspect? How many times has LE demanded that Apple install backdoors and hand them the keys, only to be told to screw off? Yes, Windows and Android devices give users more control. But that is because their business models are totally different. We all know that Google is primarily an ad-tech company, and that Android is how they collect the data for those ads. And while a technically savvy person may be able to lock down their devices, that's just a minority of users we're talking about. Apple's data collection is a murmur compared to the deafening screech of that of Google.
- ActorNightly 5y ago
  Not spreading FUD, just pointing out inconsistency. "Yes, Apple devices do collect some data" should be the end of that sentence. Any data that is collected on the device and sent to apple is not private. It doesn't matter if Apple doesn't share it with other advertisers. Apple does advertising itself. There is no difference between it an a 3d party advertiser in terms of data they have access to. Once you get past that point and accept that there is no privacy, then its just a matter of how much you trust companies with your data. If you wanna claim that you trust Apple with your data, that is your own personal choice. As far as what Apple does or doesn't with that data, it's laughable that the argument for privacy is them refusing to unlock a phone. Security isn't determined by what computers/users/companies do or don't do, its determined by what is possible. And when it comes to data, its very possible, as proven by real life events, for them to turn over your data to law enforcement. Again, whether or not you care, thats a personal choice. But saying that Apple cares about privacy is just dead wrong, you have either ironically fallen victim to the Apple adverting about privacy, or you have an intrinsic bias towards Apple because you like their products which leads you to discount basic facts.
  - threeseed 5y ago
throwaway894345 5y ago
So what's the deal? Any company that makes users opt out of diagnostic data is just as bad as the companies whose entire business model is predicated around collecting as much data as possible about you and selling it to people whose sole ambition is to manipulate you? Are these two things really equally bad? We can't acknowledge that one of those is considerably more in favor of privacy than the other--they must both be labeled "NOT PRIVACY" with all nuance eliminated? Is that where we are in our discourse?
- ActorNightly 5y ago
  Once you get past the fact that any data you don't explicitly control is by definition not private, the next conversation is about how much you are able to trust a particular company with the data they collect, and that is really an individuals choice. Niven stuff like iCloud leaks, and Apple bending over to appease China by removing the protest app from the app store (which completely makes it unable to be installed on any non jailbroken device btw), I personally don't really see a reason to trust them any more than Facebook or Google.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    So an emphatic "yes" on all accounts then? Am I interpreting you correctly?
    - ActorNightly 5y ago
      Sure if you want to boil it down to a simple yes or no answer.
- kergonath 5y ago
  It seems like it is. It’s like the relativity of wrong all over again. Two things being wrong does not mean that one of them is not better than the other. I am so tired of this fallacy, particularly in an otherwise well read community like here.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

You’re in an echo chamber. By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data, but that data can be disabled in Settings. They also upload your files in an encrypted connection (but without end to end encryption) into your iCloud backup, and that can be handed over with a subpoena, but you can disable iCloud backup or simply not pay for it.

vlunkr 5y ago
Nothing you said contradicts anything they said. By default, Apple collects all this data.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Read it closely, the poster said it wasn’t optional.
  - ActorNightly 5y ago
    He said it can be disabled in settings, which is not true. Anyone can repeat this experiment at home with a laptop and 2 usb to ethernet adaptors.
ActorNightly 5y ago
Nope. There is data that it sends that is non optional. Proof: go into settings and disable every tracking options, and then capture traffic from the device through a router with openwrt running tcpdump or wireshark on a computer with a bridge setup with ip forwarding and iptables rule. Did this experiment already twice to prove to people that Apple device do phone home plenty. Then I repeat the same experiment with my rooted android phone running a custom rom, and people watch the sparse wireshark trace with the only packets being sent are dns then ntp to the android ntp server.
- threeseed 5y ago
  Did you also disable iCloud, Find My network, App Store updates etc. What data are you claiming Apple is sending ?
saagarjha 5y ago
> By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data Doesn’t Apple ask you whether you want to enable this when you set up the device?
kergonath 5y ago
> By default, iPhones do send diagnostic data, but that data can be disabled in Settings. They also ask during setup and regularly after major updates. I know because I refuse every time. Also, quite often it is opt in, with the box to send information unticked by default.

enraged_camel 5y ago

This is a lot of FUD. Yes, Apple devices do collect some data and phone it home (mostly diagnostic, and iCloud, both of which can be turned off). However, unlike their competitors, Apple does not sell this data to advertisers. And they are just as likely to refuse to work with law enforcement as they are likely to cooperate. How many times has LE demanded that Apple break the encryption on the iPhone of a crime suspect? How many times has LE demanded that Apple install backdoors and hand them the keys, only to be told to screw off? Yes, Windows and Android devices give users more control. But that is because their business models are totally different. We all know that Google is primarily an ad-tech company, and that Android is how they collect the data for those ads. And while a technically savvy person may be able to lock down their devices, that's just a minority of users we're talking about. Apple's data collection is a murmur compared to the deafening screech of that of Google.

ActorNightly 5y ago
Not spreading FUD, just pointing out inconsistency. "Yes, Apple devices do collect some data" should be the end of that sentence. Any data that is collected on the device and sent to apple is not private. It doesn't matter if Apple doesn't share it with other advertisers. Apple does advertising itself. There is no difference between it an a 3d party advertiser in terms of data they have access to. Once you get past that point and accept that there is no privacy, then its just a matter of how much you trust companies with your data. If you wanna claim that you trust Apple with your data, that is your own personal choice. As far as what Apple does or doesn't with that data, it's laughable that the argument for privacy is them refusing to unlock a phone. Security isn't determined by what computers/users/companies do or don't do, its determined by what is possible. And when it comes to data, its very possible, as proven by real life events, for them to turn over your data to law enforcement. Again, whether or not you care, thats a personal choice. But saying that Apple cares about privacy is just dead wrong, you have either ironically fallen victim to the Apple adverting about privacy, or you have an intrinsic bias towards Apple because you like their products which leads you to discount basic facts.
- threeseed 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

So what's the deal? Any company that makes users opt out of diagnostic data is just as bad as the companies whose entire business model is predicated around collecting as much data as possible about you and selling it to people whose sole ambition is to manipulate you? Are these two things really equally bad? We can't acknowledge that one of those is considerably more in favor of privacy than the other--they must both be labeled "NOT PRIVACY" with all nuance eliminated? Is that where we are in our discourse?

ActorNightly 5y ago
Once you get past the fact that any data you don't explicitly control is by definition not private, the next conversation is about how much you are able to trust a particular company with the data they collect, and that is really an individuals choice. Niven stuff like iCloud leaks, and Apple bending over to appease China by removing the protest app from the app store (which completely makes it unable to be installed on any non jailbroken device btw), I personally don't really see a reason to trust them any more than Facebook or Google.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  So an emphatic "yes" on all accounts then? Am I interpreting you correctly?
  - ActorNightly 5y ago
    Sure if you want to boil it down to a simple yes or no answer.
kergonath 5y ago
It seems like it is. It’s like the relativity of wrong all over again. Two things being wrong does not mean that one of them is not better than the other. I am so tired of this fallacy, particularly in an otherwise well read community like here.