4 ms·

Your son joined a service he wasn't supposed to, then joined an adjacent service that still requires an invite and that triggered a mechanism that kicked him ou

by yanw 15y ago

Your son joined a service he wasn't supposed to, then joined an adjacent service that still requires an invite and that triggered a mechanism that kicked him out and he gets upset, you evidently don't think it's your fault for not reading the TOS and not being familiar with the american COPPA law and you think it's Google's fault. Congratulations on proving that link-baiting works very well even on HN.

paulgb 15y ago
Are you saying you read every TOS you agree to?
- yanw 15y ago
  I tend to when my children are involved.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    So you'd forbid your 12 year old from using Google to do searches?
    - jmilloy 15y ago
      Yes or no, at least this person wouldn't be surprised when the account was shut down.
    - corin_ 15y ago
      You don't have to be 13 to search Google as an anonymous visitor.. you'll notice that their TOS is at http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS under "accounts", if you don't make an account it's irrelevant - hence anyone can visit the Google homepage and search for something without being told that, by doing that, they are agreeing to anything.
      - kenjackson 15y ago
        At the very least its not clear. Let me give my evidence as to why the TOS applies to search: 1) While, as you note, the TOS URL contains "accounts", it is accessible in two clicks from Google.com. Simply click the "About" link and the TOS is on the About Google page. It's on a page that has nothing to do with accounts per se, but is the high-level page about the Google company and services. 2) Here's is the first paragraph in the TOS: Your use of Google’s products, software, services and web sites (referred to collectively as the “Services” in this document and excluding any services provided to you by Google under a separate written agreement) is subject to the terms of a legal agreement between you and Google. “Google” means Google Inc., whose principal place of business is at 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043, United States. This document explains how the agreement is made up, and sets out some of the terms of that agreement. They don't call out anything about accounts at all here. They seem to be referring to all services. 3) They actually have a section which is about accounts. If the whole document was about accounts they wouldn't have a specific section about it. Here is the opening paragraph of that section: In order to access certain Services, you may be required to provide information about yourself (such as identification or contact details) as part of the registration process for the Service, or as part of your continued use of the Services. You agree that any registration information you give to Google will always be accurate, correct and up to date. Notice the use of the term "certain Services". That is, certain services require an account, but not all. This document as a whole is referring to all services. If you think this TOS only applies to accounts, I think you'll need stronger information than simply the URL where the document is located. I certainly don't think the URL is part of the legal agreement. And if you read the TOS by itself, it seems pretty clear that it includes Google search.
    - tghw 15y ago
      The law isn't about using the internet, it's about creating accounts and profiles. The Khan Academy has had some trouble with this. Kids can watch the videos and do the exercises, but if they want to record their progress, they start walking a very fine line.
sp332 15y ago
Why would anyone living in the Netherlands know or care about COPPA? And why would Google enforce COPPA compliance internationally? That seems like a waste of resources, not to mention limiting their audience.
- rawsyntax 15y ago
  It seems like it would use more resources to tailor their service to every country's laws and keep it up to date. The most efficient (least resources) route of compliance is to add a 13 or older checkbox, and disable anyone who doesn't check it.
- sheffield 15y ago
  why would Google enforce COPPA compliance internationally? Because it's Google (an American company) who have to comply with COPPA and not some children (of any nationality).
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
OstiaAntica 15y ago
Yes, COPPA law is very clear and strong, and it would be a criminal act for Google to knowingly host a child's content. The parental permissions required to host children's information are way too costly for mainstream internet services, and even with permission it might not be legal for Google to do some types of marketing towards children.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Fighting for the right of Chinese - good. Fighting for the rights of minors - evil.
  - Lewisham 15y ago
    Well, this isn't exactly the same thing. Moving out of China was simply a case of turning off the servers there. Should Google try and set itself up in the Cayman Islands? Considering the very large stick Google got beat with in regards to Buzz, I do not think that they are particularly interested in lobbying Capitol Hill for a change. In fact, both they and Apple sat out a congressional hearing on COPPA [1], although I couldn't find the cause. I would expect apathy to the process, as I would think Google would love to be able to sign up more users. [1] http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/95067-lawmakers-hammer-apple-google-for-sitting-out-coppa-hearing http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/95067-la...
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      Google and Apple, frankly seemed indifferent. MS and Facebook both came and basically said that COPPA goes too far, and self-regulation would largely handle the issue (with some exceptions). With that said, I wonder if one could make the case that COPPA is unconstitutional. Hear me out: In the recent video game ruling SCOTUS has said that computer programs (video games) are a form of free speech. And they further said that conveying that free speech to minors w/o parental consent is protected. So web services too are computer programs, and therefore free speech. And like violently deviant video games the ability to convey this speech to minors w/o parental consent is also protected. COPPA overturned! :-)
pnathan 15y ago
This, so much this. Read your TOS. Read the TOS your children agree to. Don't whine when it gets enforced, you agreed to it.

by yanw 15y ago

paulgb 15y ago

Are you saying you read every TOS you agree to?

yanw 15y ago
I tend to when my children are involved.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  So you'd forbid your 12 year old from using Google to do searches?
  - jmilloy 15y ago
    Yes or no, at least this person wouldn't be surprised when the account was shut down.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    You don't have to be 13 to search Google as an anonymous visitor.. you'll notice that their TOS is at http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS under "accounts", if you don't make an account it's irrelevant - hence anyone can visit the Google homepage and search for something without being told that, by doing that, they are agreeing to anything.
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      At the very least its not clear. Let me give my evidence as to why the TOS applies to search: 1) While, as you note, the TOS URL contains "accounts", it is accessible in two clicks from Google.com. Simply click the "About" link and the TOS is on the About Google page. It's on a page that has nothing to do with accounts per se, but is the high-level page about the Google company and services. 2) Here's is the first paragraph in the TOS: Your use of Google’s products, software, services and web sites (referred to collectively as the “Services” in this document and excluding any services provided to you by Google under a separate written agreement) is subject to the terms of a legal agreement between you and Google. “Google” means Google Inc., whose principal place of business is at 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043, United States. This document explains how the agreement is made up, and sets out some of the terms of that agreement. They don't call out anything about accounts at all here. They seem to be referring to all services. 3) They actually have a section which is about accounts. If the whole document was about accounts they wouldn't have a specific section about it. Here is the opening paragraph of that section: In order to access certain Services, you may be required to provide information about yourself (such as identification or contact details) as part of the registration process for the Service, or as part of your continued use of the Services. You agree that any registration information you give to Google will always be accurate, correct and up to date. Notice the use of the term "certain Services". That is, certain services require an account, but not all. This document as a whole is referring to all services. If you think this TOS only applies to accounts, I think you'll need stronger information than simply the URL where the document is located. I certainly don't think the URL is part of the legal agreement. And if you read the TOS by itself, it seems pretty clear that it includes Google search.
  - tghw 15y ago
    The law isn't about using the internet, it's about creating accounts and profiles. The Khan Academy has had some trouble with this. Kids can watch the videos and do the exercises, but if they want to record their progress, they start walking a very fine line.

sp332 15y ago

Why would anyone living in the Netherlands know or care about COPPA? And why would Google enforce COPPA compliance internationally? That seems like a waste of resources, not to mention limiting their audience.

rawsyntax 15y ago
It seems like it would use more resources to tailor their service to every country's laws and keep it up to date. The most efficient (least resources) route of compliance is to add a 13 or older checkbox, and disable anyone who doesn't check it.
sheffield 15y ago
why would Google enforce COPPA compliance internationally? Because it's Google (an American company) who have to comply with COPPA and not some children (of any nationality).
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

OstiaAntica 15y ago

Yes, COPPA law is very clear and strong, and it would be a criminal act for Google to knowingly host a child's content. The parental permissions required to host children's information are way too costly for mainstream internet services, and even with permission it might not be legal for Google to do some types of marketing towards children.

kenjackson 15y ago
Fighting for the right of Chinese - good. Fighting for the rights of minors - evil.
- Lewisham 15y ago
  Well, this isn't exactly the same thing. Moving out of China was simply a case of turning off the servers there. Should Google try and set itself up in the Cayman Islands? Considering the very large stick Google got beat with in regards to Buzz, I do not think that they are particularly interested in lobbying Capitol Hill for a change. In fact, both they and Apple sat out a congressional hearing on COPPA [1], although I couldn't find the cause. I would expect apathy to the process, as I would think Google would love to be able to sign up more users. [1] http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/95067-lawmakers-hammer-apple-google-for-sitting-out-coppa-hearing http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/95067-la...
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Google and Apple, frankly seemed indifferent. MS and Facebook both came and basically said that COPPA goes too far, and self-regulation would largely handle the issue (with some exceptions). With that said, I wonder if one could make the case that COPPA is unconstitutional. Hear me out: In the recent video game ruling SCOTUS has said that computer programs (video games) are a form of free speech. And they further said that conveying that free speech to minors w/o parental consent is protected. So web services too are computer programs, and therefore free speech. And like violently deviant video games the ability to convey this speech to minors w/o parental consent is also protected. COPPA overturned! :-)

pnathan 15y ago

This, so much this. Read your TOS. Read the TOS your children agree to. Don't whine when it gets enforced, you agreed to it.