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I think this is a common view held by experienced computer users, because they don't consider which parts of their own usage patterns are a component of their a

I think this is a common view held by experienced computer users, because they don't consider which parts of their own usage patterns are a component of their advanced knowledge, and which are inherent to all users. For example: an experienced user is more likely to notice that closing a window in macOS backgrounds the app, and more likely to figure out how to fully exit the app process completely (either via Cmd+Q or menu>Quit). Given that, an experienced user is less likely to grow accustomed to all of their apps being in a backgrounded state, and find Finders forced background state unusual/exceptional. In contrast, an inexperienced computer user will likely leave all apps they use open all the time (possibly not realising they're running) and as such grow more quickly accustomed to having to Option+N for everything (not just Finder). There's a lot of such examples in macOS.

liprais 5y ago
It is obvious you are used to windows.
- lucideer 5y ago
  I'm a Mac user. I'm re-reading my own comment as both replies to it seem to have taken the opposite point that I intended, but I can't see where I said the macOS behaviour is bad. I personally like it (though I wasn't saying that either). My only point was that it being less intuitive for more techy users doesn't mean it's not generally very intuitive for the majority.
allenu 5y ago
I think you mean “experienced Windows user using macOS”. What you describe are consistent design choices on the Mac. If you flipped things around and only knew Macs and went to Windows, you might be surprised that closing a window there exits an app! There’s no reason one behavior is more correct than the other.
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  That’s only by convention. Both OSes have an application with 0-x windows. macOS is just more transparent
  - allenu 5y ago
    How do Windows app with zero windows work? The reason it’s doable on macOS is because the menu bar is always there.
    - Kwpolska 5y ago
      They live in the tray, aka notification area.
      - samatman 5y ago
        That's not the same thing though. macOS has those also, programs can live on the menu bar. But in macOS, closing the last window basically never exits the program. Even for a program like Element, which is just an Electron view, closing the window doesn't quit the program, even though what's left over is useless: there's no way to relaunch the Electron pane except to quit and start it again. This is just how macOS works: if you want to quit, you type Cmd-Q, if you want to close windows, red button or Cmd-W, and closing windows won't quit your program.
        allenu 5y ago
        There is one example of really bad app behavior when the last window is closed and it's one that Apple makes themselves: QuickTime Player. If you open up QuickTime Player and then play back a video, then close the video, as soon as you background the app, it auto-quits itself. I wonder if they made it behave this way at some point to get around a memory leak. It's such an unexpected thing and it infuriates me each time I encounter it.
        cmiller1 5y ago
        Just tested and QuickTime Player stayed open, not sure I've ever seen this happen.
- lucideer 5y ago
  I didn't imply otherwise? Did you mean to reply to the gp comment? I'd say both behaviours could be equally surprising to any user, regardless of their previous OS biases but either way that's not really related to the point I was making. I was just saying that an inexperienced user will notice technical details less (e.g. the ramifications of processes continuing to run in the background without windows, the dock status indicators showing they're still open, the fact they show up in the app switcher, etc.) and as such won't be inclined to "take control" of that default behaviour in a way that an experienced user might, due to their heightened awareness of it.
  - allenu 5y ago
    Ah, my mistake. I misread your comment since you mentioned generally "experienced users" and then mentioned specific macOS details that might be confusing for experienced Windows users. I see now what you meant.
- icedistilled 5y ago
  Reading all the comments as someone who grew up on macs and only encountered windows much later on, all the comments here are quite amusing because it's rather clear that 95% of people commenting are windows users first who encountered mac later and wonder why it's not windows. To be fair, mac used to be pretty fringe so it's expected most people would build their mental models around windows traditions by the time they started using mac.
gowld 5y ago
> an inexperienced computer user will likely leave all apps they use open all the time There are two kinds of novice users: * Leave all apps and windows open forever * Close everything as soon as context switches, avoiding with multitasking. You can also blend the two, but closing all windows you leave, but leave open forever when the system forces a switch. > grow more quickly accustomed to having to Option+N Novice users don't know what Option+N is. The Mac was always designed to be used without hotkeys.
- lucideer 5y ago
  > You can also blend the two, but closing all windows you leave, but leave open forever when the system forces a switch. This was my point. I don't think "Leave all windows open forever" is specifically a type of novice user: I've met expert users who do this. But I was rather focused on the "Leave all macOS apps open forever" not because they're content with apps being open, but simply because it's non-obvious that the apps are running. e.g. my mother is a "close everything" user: she even manually logs out of all online sessions immediately whenever she's finished with that tab (often entering credentials again many times in a browsing session if she needs to return to a site). She really can't stand having multiple things active simultaneously. She leaves all apps running (windowlessly) all the time on macOS. She would not be happy if I told her they were still running in the background.

liprais 5y ago

It is obvious you are used to windows.

lucideer 5y ago
I'm a Mac user. I'm re-reading my own comment as both replies to it seem to have taken the opposite point that I intended, but I can't see where I said the macOS behaviour is bad. I personally like it (though I wasn't saying that either). My only point was that it being less intuitive for more techy users doesn't mean it's not generally very intuitive for the majority.

allenu 5y ago

I think you mean “experienced Windows user using macOS”. What you describe are consistent design choices on the Mac. If you flipped things around and only knew Macs and went to Windows, you might be surprised that closing a window there exits an app! There’s no reason one behavior is more correct than the other.

jbverschoor 5y ago
That’s only by convention. Both OSes have an application with 0-x windows. macOS is just more transparent
- allenu 5y ago
  How do Windows app with zero windows work? The reason it’s doable on macOS is because the menu bar is always there.
  - Kwpolska 5y ago
    They live in the tray, aka notification area.
    - samatman 5y ago
      That's not the same thing though. macOS has those also, programs can live on the menu bar. But in macOS, closing the last window basically never exits the program. Even for a program like Element, which is just an Electron view, closing the window doesn't quit the program, even though what's left over is useless: there's no way to relaunch the Electron pane except to quit and start it again. This is just how macOS works: if you want to quit, you type Cmd-Q, if you want to close windows, red button or Cmd-W, and closing windows won't quit your program.
      - allenu 5y ago
        There is one example of really bad app behavior when the last window is closed and it's one that Apple makes themselves: QuickTime Player. If you open up QuickTime Player and then play back a video, then close the video, as soon as you background the app, it auto-quits itself. I wonder if they made it behave this way at some point to get around a memory leak. It's such an unexpected thing and it infuriates me each time I encounter it.
        cmiller1 5y ago
        Just tested and QuickTime Player stayed open, not sure I've ever seen this happen.
lucideer 5y ago
I didn't imply otherwise? Did you mean to reply to the gp comment? I'd say both behaviours could be equally surprising to any user, regardless of their previous OS biases but either way that's not really related to the point I was making. I was just saying that an inexperienced user will notice technical details less (e.g. the ramifications of processes continuing to run in the background without windows, the dock status indicators showing they're still open, the fact they show up in the app switcher, etc.) and as such won't be inclined to "take control" of that default behaviour in a way that an experienced user might, due to their heightened awareness of it.
- allenu 5y ago
  Ah, my mistake. I misread your comment since you mentioned generally "experienced users" and then mentioned specific macOS details that might be confusing for experienced Windows users. I see now what you meant.
icedistilled 5y ago
Reading all the comments as someone who grew up on macs and only encountered windows much later on, all the comments here are quite amusing because it's rather clear that 95% of people commenting are windows users first who encountered mac later and wonder why it's not windows. To be fair, mac used to be pretty fringe so it's expected most people would build their mental models around windows traditions by the time they started using mac.

gowld 5y ago

> an inexperienced computer user will likely leave all apps they use open all the time There are two kinds of novice users: * Leave all apps and windows open forever * Close everything as soon as context switches, avoiding with multitasking. You can also blend the two, but closing all windows you leave, but leave open forever when the system forces a switch. > grow more quickly accustomed to having to Option+N Novice users don't know what Option+N is. The Mac was always designed to be used without hotkeys.

lucideer 5y ago
> You can also blend the two, but closing all windows you leave, but leave open forever when the system forces a switch. This was my point. I don't think "Leave all windows open forever" is specifically a type of novice user: I've met expert users who do this. But I was rather focused on the "Leave all macOS apps open forever" not because they're content with apps being open, but simply because it's non-obvious that the apps are running. e.g. my mother is a "close everything" user: she even manually logs out of all online sessions immediately whenever she's finished with that tab (often entering credentials again many times in a browsing session if she needs to return to a site). She really can't stand having multiple things active simultaneously. She leaves all apps running (windowlessly) all the time on macOS. She would not be happy if I told her they were still running in the background.