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I don't disagree with their plight but it does raise the question of where transgender athletes should compete. Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantag
by jpgvm 5y ago
I don't disagree with their plight but it does raise the question of where transgender athletes should compete.
Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes but a disadvantage over similarly aged males that aren't undergoing hormone treatments.
Female-to-male athletes are probably different again, probably less severe than the former case though but still creating an advantage over natural females and still at a disadvantage to male athletes.
No one likes to advocate for a special category but I think it might be the best option from a fairness perspective even if it's at odds with modern thinking on gender identity.
- DanBC 5y ago> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes There's no evidence of this. EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.
- s9w 5y agoThey are still guys. There's at least dozens, probably hundreds of examples.
- DanBC 5y agoYour inability to name any of them has been noted. The fact that some cunts felt your comment was worthy of [vouching] despite your vile comment history tells us all we need to know about this cess pit.
- Dobbs 5y agoHN is too toxic, and too wrapped up in their devil advocating for things they don't understand nor care to understand to have this kind of conversation with. Sorry you are getting downvoted for saying something that goes against "common sense" even if it the truth of the mater.
- caddemon 5y agoI've been told to think of trans people as always being their true gender, from birth. Which makes perfect sense to me, but then that contradicts this discussion of athletics. Clearly there will be some points in time when the trans woman athlete had a biological advantage over other women, but that doesn't mean they weren't a woman at that time too.
- DanBC 5y agoTildes is more conducive to rational discussion about trans people. People are more willing to read the science and less likely to knee-jerk their ignorant hateful opinions.
- ASalazarMX 5y agoToxic is calling other people toxic for not following your emotional opinions. It's incontestable that male-to-female trans have an unfair physical advantage over females, take the case of Fallon Fox, the MMA female trans fighter who has fractured the skull of female rivals. Having trans females fight biological females is unethical.
- Dobbs 5y agoExcept nothing you said is true. Fallon Fox has not caused more head injuries than is statistically likely for MMA. There is no actual evidence of trans women having an oversized advantage in sports and when it has been tried to be studied has had mixed results at best. Additionally despite trans people being allowed to compete in the olympics for over a decade it has been basically non existent. Things that seem “common sense” often are far more complicated then they seem on the surface. Should trans people partake in youth sports? Maybe sorta, with restrictions it depends. Should adult trans women be allowed to partake in sports, probably yes after sufficient time on hormones as the limited data we have says it isn’t a significant advantage, or may be a disadvantage. That said we should study and learn. This conversation is toxic because people who don’t understand the subject matter come in and say things they don’t understand and continually insult and degrade a vulnerable minority.
- 5y ago
- leephillips 5y agohttps://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighte...
- rtya 5y agohttps://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 Conclusion: "We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking."
- tasogare 5y agoHow hard would it be to base the categories on basic biology, like a chromosome test? It seems the current rules are crafted specially to be bend. It also raises the question of sport’s universality. Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world. Will there be a split at the international level between countries that use sex and those that use gender for making the two categories?
- Dobbs 5y ago1) chromosome tests are useless. They set the original blueprint of what your body is, but if that original blueprint is ignored then they mean nothing. 2) As the original comment mentioned this completely fails for trans men. They are often physically stronger due to the higher presences of testosterone in the body. 3) For trans women this often fails because once sufficient time is spent on oestrogen testosterone levels drop to often below cis female levels. This causes a drop in muscle mass and can lead to the "bigger body, smaller engine" problem. Additionally with trans youth who have earlier access to puberty blockers and then earlier access to hormones they may never have gone through a traditional "male" puberty. > Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world. This is a very bad statement in many ways. At best this is a confirmation bias. You notice the trans people who you notice, therefore you don't have a good barometer of who is trans and who isn't unless they tell you. I know plenty of trans people who you would never be able to recognize. Even for non-trans people this can be very deceptive and is very cultural dependent.
- bigphishy 5y agoWhen a fetus is exposed to testosterone ( as males are ) their physiology is fundamentally and unalterably changed.
- Smaug123 5y agoAll things lie on a spectrum: there's no binary "was exposed to testosterone in the womb", nor is there a binary "their physiology is changed or not". See, for example, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190318151730.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190318151730.h..., a paper which purports to show that females who shared a womb with males tend to have some of their life outcomes pushed towards the testosterone end of the scale.
- austincheney 5y agoThe difference there is that female athletes do not choose to be female. A transgender person, according to your personal politics, may not choose to be transgender, but taking hormones for a sex transition therapy is a choice. Female athletes should not be punished with unfair competition for that choice of hormone therapy upon a biological male.
- Dobbs 5y agoTrans people don't choose to be transgender. They choose to either deal with the almost certainly crippling gender dysphoria or to transition.
- austincheney 5y agoThis thread was flagged almost immediately after it was created. Where is all the traffic to it coming from?
- sneak 5y agoI ended up here from reading HN stories in an RSS reader.
- ASalazarMX 5y agoSame. TheOldReader caught this before it was flagged. It's an unjustified flag IMO, but at least it came back from [dead].
- caddemon 5y agoThe biggest problem with that is probably that there aren't enough trans people at the high school athletics level to form a local league. For something like running it is maybe realistic, but for any team sports it's definitely not. Basketball feels like an example where a single dominant player could change the outcome of a league, but you would still need like 10 kids per school minimum to field a team. I think most trans men want to compete with the men anyway though, in fact the controversy with the FtM wrestler crushing a bunch of women a few years ago was because his conservative state wouldn't let him compete with the men. IMO the men's league should be open to anyone that can make it, so the issue is really just who should qualify for the women's league - which presumably only those that identify as women would even try to. I would think the vast majority of people agree that a trans woman that just started hormones yesterday should not be allowed to compete with women, so there would have to be some restriction beyond just identity. Figuring out the specifics is tough though.
- darkhorse22 5y agoExactly, we need three categories: M, W, ?. In ?, anything goes: Hormones, steroids, doping, etc. We can't let nature hold back sport.
- readthenotes1 5y agoWe shouldn't separate by gender (which is irrelevant for sport performance using the "identify as" definition), but should simply use testosterone level: low, medium, high, based on highest level tested.
- tffgg 5y agoTestosterone level is completely unfair when hormones are actively manipulated.
- thrixton 5y agoIn a simplistic sense. It's unfair for both parties. But one party made a choice and should therefore bear the unfair cost of their choice.
- gigabuddha 5y agoWell said. There are endless times in life that we make choices and those choices close other doors for us. It's normal. The idea that we have to shape the world to work with everyone's choices so no one has to deal with disappointment is ridiculous.
- lumberingjack 5y agoSpecial Olympics and events already exist for mentally ill put them there they sort of belong