5 ms·

As a EU citizen, this is quite hilarious. The EU is so toothless it hurts.

by tacker2000 5y ago

raverbashing 5y ago
Good, so you're in favour of an EU army? Armed invasion of Bielorussia to kidnap the guy back? The geopolitical armchair experts complain more about responses than actually giving realistic suggestions to give. (Sure, we can cut Belarus out, and see thousands of "Russian tourists" go for a holiday there right after - maybe that would be a good response?). And yes, you won't see me defending Borrell.
- jeltz 5y ago
  I agree. There is a lot of armchair whining here. Are people really in favour of an invasion of Belarus?
  - input_sh 5y ago
    Why are you talking like there's no middle between not doing anything and a full on invasion? From the top of my head: - Divert EU planes to avoid Belarus. - Prevent Belarus' aeroplanes from flying over the EU. - Increase sanctions towards Belarus officials. etc etc
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      Thanks, yes, these are realistic, and might be in the way of being implemented. (Also probably will get counted as "toothless". That's kinda of my point)
    - toyg 5y ago
      Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there has been a strong response already, and it will likely get stronger in the next few weeks.
      - ridethebike 5y ago
        Yes, but, remember mh-17 - the plane with 200 dutch citizens that russians blasted out of the sky in 2014? I'm sure strong response from the EU is coming in any minute now.
        toyg 5y ago
        Russia was sanctioned as part of the annexation of Crimea, of which that crime was part.
      - trunc8 5y ago
        Well that's a most uncharitable characterisation of Ryanair. They are indeed profit-driven but they are unashamedly upfront and, frankly, honest about this. Their ruthless efficiency enables cheap flights across Europe, which was largely out of reach to previous generations. I'm not sure how they really differ from other successful profit-driven businesses, other than perhaps their marketing approach. You can choose not to fly with them of course, but many do, and wouldn't consider themselves immoral for doing so.
        toyg 5y ago
        After this very incident, they continued flying over Belarus like nothing had happened. They couldn't sacrifice even a penny of profit, after one of their very own passengers had been kidnapped, to guarantee the safety of their customers. That was scummy, but absolutely in character for a business that doesn't even pretend to care about anything but their money. It took European law to make them provide the bare minimum of human comfort to their passengers. I often have little alternative but to fly with Ryanair, as the airport in my hometown has been effectively taken over by them during a downturn. I honestly don't even experience much of the "cheapness" - for one reason or another, flying with my kids always ends up costing as much as on a regular airline. They currently owe me 600 quid for a flight I had booked pre-pandemic which obviously got cancelled - and they'd rather sit on a "voucher" for a decade rather than refund me, of course. I'm happy they changed the market a bit, but that was 30 years ago, now they're just a garden variety sociopathic business.
- newsbinator 5y ago
  Friendly note: people from the country of Belarus call themselves "Belarusians" (pronounced like "bela-roo-sians", not like "bela-russians"), and take offence at the term "Bielorussia".
  - hadrien01 5y ago
    This might be a simple mistranslation; in many Romance languages, Belarus is called 'Bielorussia'.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Noted and fixed, as the other commenter noted it was the wrong language (and yes the romance languages call it something like Bielorussia, not much that can be done about that, sorry)
  - lampington 5y ago
    That's interesting! From my (admittedly very weak) understanding of Cyrillic, I'd expect Беларусь to be pronounced with a "y" sound as part of the "e", similarly to the vowel at the start of Ельцин (Yeltsin). Presumably that's because of a lack of orthographic knowledge on my part... or is it something more subtle (say, the belorusian language differing from Russian)? I have a vague memory of languages in the former Yugoslavia being either "ekavsky" or "ijekavsky".
input_sh 5y ago
Couldn't agree more. The pattern is basically: 1. High-ranking official says they're "gravely/deeply/very concerned" within the first 24-48h. 2. Some EU parliament member mentions the problem within two or three weeks, shaming other members. A clip of this few minutes long speech gets shared all over social media. 3. Absolutely nothing happens until everyone forgets about the issue. Over and over again, issue after issue, day after day.
- queuebert 5y ago
  Is this better or worse than the US pattern of sanctions and drone strikes?
hutzlibu 5y ago
Would you prefer a strong, centralised EU government with a strong leader (aka dictator)? Well, I don't. But this is the only way to take direct action - as the individual members are not of a single mind.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "centralised EU government with a strong leader (aka dictator)?" Those are the only two options? Like how you can either have people dying because they cant afford a surgery, or you become EUSSR?
- oytis 5y ago
  Democracies can be capable of quick direct action too. See U.S. esp. U.S. some 50-70 years back. Democracy is no excuse for being inefficient, if democracies don't find a way to protect their values and interests, they will eventually be replaced by more efficient states
  - supportlocal4h 5y ago
    I was just explaining to my children that there was a time when the USA government employed censors (an actual job title) to control television content. Much that the USA was or did 50-70 years ago was decidedly not democratic and not their proudest moment.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Ah yes, the glory days of "quick direct action" in Vietnam and Cambodia. What fun was had by everyone! What progress was achieved! We should totally long for that.
    - oytis 5y ago
      These are examples of unsuccessful wars, although we don't know how many times the possibility of American intervention prevented USSR from starting theirs. Korean war was partially successful though, the whole Korea could look like North Korea if US didn't intervene
jopsen 5y ago
Sometimes it's the slow and steady diplomacy that affects the biggest change over time. What good is quick action going to do? It might be better to let this guide trading policies in the future.
- avereveard 5y ago
  for the guy that's being detained (or worse) right now every minute kind of counts
  - jopsen 5y ago
    It's cold, but in the long run one person probably doesn't matter that much. No offense to Archduke Franz Ferdinand, but he probably wasn't worth trouble :)

As a EU citizen, this is quite hilarious. The EU is so toothless it hurts.

Good, so you're in favour of an EU army? Armed invasion of Bielorussia to kidnap the guy back? The geopolitical armchair experts complain more about responses than actually giving realistic suggestions to give. (Sure, we can cut Belarus out, and see thousands of "Russian tourists" go for a holiday there right after - maybe that would be a good response?). And yes, you won't see me defending Borrell.

jeltz 5y ago
I agree. There is a lot of armchair whining here. Are people really in favour of an invasion of Belarus?
- input_sh 5y ago
  Why are you talking like there's no middle between not doing anything and a full on invasion? From the top of my head: - Divert EU planes to avoid Belarus. - Prevent Belarus' aeroplanes from flying over the EU. - Increase sanctions towards Belarus officials. etc etc
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Thanks, yes, these are realistic, and might be in the way of being implemented. (Also probably will get counted as "toothless". That's kinda of my point)
  - toyg 5y ago
    Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there has been a strong response already, and it will likely get stronger in the next few weeks.
    - ridethebike 5y ago
      Yes, but, remember mh-17 - the plane with 200 dutch citizens that russians blasted out of the sky in 2014? I'm sure strong response from the EU is coming in any minute now.
      - toyg 5y ago
        Russia was sanctioned as part of the annexation of Crimea, of which that crime was part.
    - trunc8 5y ago
      Well that's a most uncharitable characterisation of Ryanair. They are indeed profit-driven but they are unashamedly upfront and, frankly, honest about this. Their ruthless efficiency enables cheap flights across Europe, which was largely out of reach to previous generations. I'm not sure how they really differ from other successful profit-driven businesses, other than perhaps their marketing approach. You can choose not to fly with them of course, but many do, and wouldn't consider themselves immoral for doing so.
      - toyg 5y ago
        After this very incident, they continued flying over Belarus like nothing had happened. They couldn't sacrifice even a penny of profit, after one of their very own passengers had been kidnapped, to guarantee the safety of their customers. That was scummy, but absolutely in character for a business that doesn't even pretend to care about anything but their money. It took European law to make them provide the bare minimum of human comfort to their passengers. I often have little alternative but to fly with Ryanair, as the airport in my hometown has been effectively taken over by them during a downturn. I honestly don't even experience much of the "cheapness" - for one reason or another, flying with my kids always ends up costing as much as on a regular airline. They currently owe me 600 quid for a flight I had booked pre-pandemic which obviously got cancelled - and they'd rather sit on a "voucher" for a decade rather than refund me, of course. I'm happy they changed the market a bit, but that was 30 years ago, now they're just a garden variety sociopathic business.
newsbinator 5y ago
Friendly note: people from the country of Belarus call themselves "Belarusians" (pronounced like "bela-roo-sians", not like "bela-russians"), and take offence at the term "Bielorussia".
- hadrien01 5y ago
  This might be a simple mistranslation; in many Romance languages, Belarus is called 'Bielorussia'.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Noted and fixed, as the other commenter noted it was the wrong language (and yes the romance languages call it something like Bielorussia, not much that can be done about that, sorry)
- lampington 5y ago
  That's interesting! From my (admittedly very weak) understanding of Cyrillic, I'd expect Беларусь to be pronounced with a "y" sound as part of the "e", similarly to the vowel at the start of Ельцин (Yeltsin). Presumably that's because of a lack of orthographic knowledge on my part... or is it something more subtle (say, the belorusian language differing from Russian)? I have a vague memory of languages in the former Yugoslavia being either "ekavsky" or "ijekavsky".

input_sh 5y ago

Couldn't agree more. The pattern is basically: 1. High-ranking official says they're "gravely/deeply/very concerned" within the first 24-48h. 2. Some EU parliament member mentions the problem within two or three weeks, shaming other members. A clip of this few minutes long speech gets shared all over social media. 3. Absolutely nothing happens until everyone forgets about the issue. Over and over again, issue after issue, day after day.

queuebert 5y ago
Is this better or worse than the US pattern of sanctions and drone strikes?

hutzlibu 5y ago

Would you prefer a strong, centralised EU government with a strong leader (aka dictator)? Well, I don't. But this is the only way to take direct action - as the individual members are not of a single mind.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"centralised EU government with a strong leader (aka dictator)?" Those are the only two options? Like how you can either have people dying because they cant afford a surgery, or you become EUSSR?
oytis 5y ago
Democracies can be capable of quick direct action too. See U.S. esp. U.S. some 50-70 years back. Democracy is no excuse for being inefficient, if democracies don't find a way to protect their values and interests, they will eventually be replaced by more efficient states
- supportlocal4h 5y ago
  I was just explaining to my children that there was a time when the USA government employed censors (an actual job title) to control television content. Much that the USA was or did 50-70 years ago was decidedly not democratic and not their proudest moment.
- toyg 5y ago
  Ah yes, the glory days of "quick direct action" in Vietnam and Cambodia. What fun was had by everyone! What progress was achieved! We should totally long for that.
  - oytis 5y ago
    These are examples of unsuccessful wars, although we don't know how many times the possibility of American intervention prevented USSR from starting theirs. Korean war was partially successful though, the whole Korea could look like North Korea if US didn't intervene

jopsen 5y ago

Sometimes it's the slow and steady diplomacy that affects the biggest change over time. What good is quick action going to do? It might be better to let this guide trading policies in the future.

avereveard 5y ago
for the guy that's being detained (or worse) right now every minute kind of counts
- jopsen 5y ago
  It's cold, but in the long run one person probably doesn't matter that much. No offense to Archduke Franz Ferdinand, but he probably wasn't worth trouble :)