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European diplomats being "strongly concerned" have long become a running joke here in Russia: https://twitter.com/ISEUConcerned https://twitter.com/ISEUConcerne

European diplomats being "strongly concerned" have long become a running joke here in Russia: https://twitter.com/ISEUConcerned https://twitter.com/ISEUConcerned I sincerely hope that this statement finally gets backed up by some decisive action that can put real pressure on these dictators, but I don't get my hopes up.

thinkingemote 5y ago
I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? Is it like China yet? I'm guessing not as there's no visible list of banned words and phrases, but we don't see (in HN) much criticism of Russia, Belarus from there, just attacks on the hypocrisy of the West. Do you see it headed towards China, where no internal criticism is allowed?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  How will you know if the answer to this is honest or censored, though?
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    For the Chinese you can tell when they cannot even refer to, say or admit certain things: e.g. massacres. But they would say "we are not being censored" For China and Russia, etc, it feels as if by mocking the hypocrisy of the West they are naively assuming that there's no such criticism from within the West. I think this is revealing but I might be wrong.
    - kofejnik 5y ago
      > For the Chinese you can tell when they cannot even refer to, say or admit certain things: e.g. massacres. But they would say "we are not being censored" It is exactly the same in Russia, you may not mention certain historical facts at all, e.g. Germany-USSR cooperation during 1939-1941
      - nzmsv 5y ago
        That's why there is a Russian language Wikipedia article about said cooperation: https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Договор_о_ненападении_между_Германией_и_Советским_Союзом https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Договор_о_ненападении_между_... and that article cites a number of print books.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        To be fair, that's likely neither hosted in Russia nor exclusively edited by Russian residents. The Chinese Wikipedia has an article on the 1989 Tienanmen Square massacre, for example. I would assume it's not available in China. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B%E4%BA%8B%E4...
      - YarickR2 5y ago
        Well, this is fine example of so-called "lie", plain and simple. You may mention it, and often it is being mentioned by all kinds of media. Things that really are frowned upon are highly controversial topics like alleged mass raping by the Red Army in Germany during WW2 . Other than that, no holds are barred, and things are discussed freely; I'd say hot topics are more frequent in Russian media than in the US one ; but clearly hotness and level of controversy is different in two blocs
        kofejnik 5y ago
        if you're still in Russia, try posting some photos of 1939 Brest-Litovsk parade on your VK page, we'll watch from afar how it goes for you
        nzmsv 5y ago
        Like this? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_вермахта_перед_частями_РККА_в_Бресте https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_вермахта_перед_частями_Р...
        5y ago
  - golergka 5y ago
    You can google my username, and get my social network accounts for the last 20 years, and a lot of details me and even my family, wikipedia article about my grandfather and his history in USSR, and so on. And then ask yourself if state propaganda would go to such trouble for a couple of comments. It's not doxing, I wouldn't use it if I wasn't completely okay with that.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  It is a crime to make caricatures of Vladimir Putin. Someone is downvoting this comment to death, so I'm sharing the story for the brave and curious. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05/its-now-illegal-in-russia-to-share-an-image-of-putin-as-a-gay-clown/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    It's also apparently not advisable to beat him in ice hockey. https://deadspin.com/vladimir-putin-scores-eight-goals-in-russian-hockey-g-1846867949 https://deadspin.com/vladimir-putin-scores-eight-goals-in-ru...
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    Pikabu is one of the most popular Russian websites (something like Reddit). Here's search results of Putin caricatures: https://pikabu.ru/tag/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%20%D0%9F%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD,%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0 https://pikabu.ru/tag/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D... It might be a crime, but it's not enforced enough, obviously.
    - vimy 5y ago
      The real reason for that law is probably to use it as a tool against dissidents.
- struxure 5y ago
  Criticism is allowed unless you have ambitions to work in government. Critique of the government has become actually quite common in the Russian stand up comedy scene. There are some exceptions, like you cannot show any public disrespect to the Head of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov (you can google how people apologise to him). Edit (forgot to mention): also, participating in anti-government protests often results in people losing their jobs or being expelled from the universities Edit 2: also, there is an ongoing crisis with the independent media: the Russian government is trying to suffocate the independent news outlets by classifying them as foreign agents (which has pretty bad practical outcomes for the news outlet)
  - dkdk8283 5y ago
    > participating in anti-government protests often results in people losing their jobs or being expelled from the universities This is quickly becoming the situation in the US if you criticize popular political movements.
    - struxure 5y ago
      Not exactly... In the US, organizations use this form of self-censorship to prevent a potential backlash from the public, whereas in Russia, the bans are direct orders from the government and the employers simply don't have any choice.
      - hedora 5y ago
        Often, there is less practical difference than I’d hope for. Look at the credit card networks’ sanctions of things like allofmp3.com, for example. If you enjoy audio fiction, or short stories you might enjoy “The Revolution, brought to you by Nike”. It was written by an ad industry insider, and touches on a lot of issues regarding corporate self-censorship. (It’s a few years old, and predates Nike’s recent political activism): https://escapepod.org/2018/09/06/escape-pod-644-the-revolution-brought-to-you-by-nike-part-1/ https://escapepod.org/2018/09/06/escape-pod-644-the-revoluti...
    - morelisp 5y ago
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  > are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? What "associated astern european states" do you mean?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Belarus probably serves as a decent example.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
      Belarus aside, which ones? Because I can't think of any. Seriously, it's been over thirty years since the end of Cold War and people still think there are some eastern European states associated with Russia... Almost all of them are in the EU now with the notable exception of Ukraine which is in a state of de facto war with Russia. Even Lukashenko has a bitter-sweet relationship with Putin.
      - petre 5y ago
        There's still Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaidjan. Technically, the Caucasus region is still in Europe.
        def_true_false 5y ago
        I've seen some consider Kazakhstan to be a part of Europe. I suspect the region stretches, depending on the speaker, far enough east to encompass the speaker's country, regardless of its location (but no further).
        petre 5y ago
        Kazahstan is in Central Asia probably because it's so big. Even their timezones are prefixed with Asia. The Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountains are the eastern limits of Europe, so everything on the Caspian's west bank is in Europe. Astrakhan is in Europe for instance.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  > I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? Is it like China yet? Yes, plenty of people inside those countries do not like regime and openly discuss it on public internet websites. I don't know about China situation so I can't make a direct comparison. If you're very popular blogger and you'll make direct insults to Putin (or any other person with high position), you might be fined or even jailed, there are laws prohibiting insults against people, but those cases are very rare. And nobody hunts ordinary people. > I'm guessing not as there's no visible list of banned words and phrases, but we don't see (in HN) much criticism of Russia, Belarus from there, just attacks on the hypocrisy of the West. Huh? HN is pretty much against Russia, Belarus, etc. Those who try to defend usually are heavily downvoted and labeled as kremlin bots. Anyway people usually are gathered with similar viewpoints. Any outsiders are expelled quickly. I know web forums, where most of people are holding pro-Russian viewpoint and I know web forums, where most of people are holding pro-West viewpoint. But I know no webforum with balanced opinion. I think that for US people Republicans vs Democrats might be a close analogy.
  - jiofih 5y ago
    > If you're very popular blogger and you'll make direct insults to Putin (or any other person with high position), you might be fined or even jailed > nobody hunts ordinary people Unless they have something bad to say about the regime. These don’t add up, are bloggers not ordinary people? How can you be ok with this?
    - vbezhenar 5y ago
      > Unless they have something bad to say about the regime. That's not true. > are bloggers not ordinary people? No, they're influencers. > How can you be ok with this? Why wouldn't I be ok with this? Nobody should be allowed to insult anyone.
- golergka 5y ago
  > I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? That's a tough question. For example, when I was active in TikTok (I grew tired of it pretty fast), I've made a lot of very critical videos that had a lot of views. In one of them, that got almost 100k views, I explicitly said that Putin and his gang are usurping power, and while the current Russian laws say that it's punishable up to 20 years in prison, I think that they deserve the death penalty. I did not get in any trouble for that. But many others from Russian Libertarian Party (which I'm a member of) have, even though they've said much less. May be they had a wider reach, or may be it's just random, I don't know. And I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of years later I'll get 5 years of prison for these TikToks.
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    thanks for your perspective! Is the chilling factor an issue there yet? It feels from your comments that it's not, that its a bit too random yet, or a bit too early?
- newaccount2021 5y ago
  not like America...here all of our colleges and workplaces encourage intellectual diversity and expression /s
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rsynnott 5y ago
  While criticism is legal, it does significantly increase your chances of falling out a window, if you're in a prominent position. Very careless, these Kremlin critics. Interestingly, critics of repressive regimes exhibit _themed_ carelessness; those who were a bit too open in Apartheid South Africa fell down _stairs_, instead.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  I am very worried that the situation is headed towards China, or much worse. And the main reason I am worried is that I can see no path towards a peaceful de-escalation. It is a foregone conclusion in the West that "Russia = bad" and any attempt to say anything counter to that narrative gets you labeled a pro-Kremlin troll. Let's see how deep in the grey this comments ends up for example. Think Germany after WW1. Humiliated, defeated country. The people of such countries tend to follow leaders who promise to make them great again. When they do, they get further mockery and isolation. And I think it's been conclusively proven that this only breeds more radicalism. But most will read this as "if you are not with us then you are against us" and turn up the intensity.
cblconfederate 5y ago
That's because EU is too expanded to be able to reach consensus. Individual countries are taking action however
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  Can individual countries yank airport landing slots? That would get attention.
tacker2000 5y ago
As a EU citizen, this is quite hilarious. The EU is so toothless it hurts.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Good, so you're in favour of an EU army? Armed invasion of Bielorussia to kidnap the guy back? The geopolitical armchair experts complain more about responses than actually giving realistic suggestions to give. (Sure, we can cut Belarus out, and see thousands of "Russian tourists" go for a holiday there right after - maybe that would be a good response?). And yes, you won't see me defending Borrell.
  - jeltz 5y ago
    I agree. There is a lot of armchair whining here. Are people really in favour of an invasion of Belarus?
    - input_sh 5y ago
      Why are you talking like there's no middle between not doing anything and a full on invasion? From the top of my head: - Divert EU planes to avoid Belarus. - Prevent Belarus' aeroplanes from flying over the EU. - Increase sanctions towards Belarus officials. etc etc
      - raverbashing 5y ago
        Thanks, yes, these are realistic, and might be in the way of being implemented. (Also probably will get counted as "toothless". That's kinda of my point)
      - toyg 5y ago
        Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there has been a strong response already, and it will likely get stronger in the next few weeks.
salex89 5y ago
It has been a joke outside of Russia, also... I share your hope.
heavenlyblue 5y ago
What is the probability of this account being owned by Russian government? I would say 99% and you’re just perpetuating the same propaganda.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  No, much smaller. I would agree that the EU's foreign policy is a disaster because of traditionally corrupted elites. The fact that the russian elites are even more corrupted is not an excuse.
  - ols 5y ago
    EU doesn’t have a joint foregin policy. Foregin relations is still an intergovernmental matter.
    - gostsamo 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Union_for_Foreign_Affairs_and_Security_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Uni...
      - toyg 5y ago
        Yeah, the HR role has been systematically sabotaged since its inception, by way of appointing weaker and weaker nominees and starving it of any real power. At the moment it's a glorified PR position, with no decisional power whatsoever. Javier Solana effectively lost the battle for being the EU "foreign minister" and since then it's all been about individual member states. Chances are this will not change until there is a serious rethinking of the European role in NATO. As long as the big decisions are taken there, there is no real role for an EU "ministry" beyond trade interests.
    - ols 5y ago
      „The Common Foreign and Security Policy […] deals only with a specific part of the EU's external relations, which domains include mainly Trade and Commercial Policy and other areas such as funding to third countries, etc” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Po...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jahnu 5y ago
There is this reaction in internet communities to demand a kind of reaction from a democratic organisation that would only be possible in an autocracy.
ruairispain 5y ago
The difference here is the European politicians will be scared shitless if they fly over a country where they think they might get arrested. Politicians scare easily and will protect themselves. If journalists can be arrested so can politicians.
def_true_false 5y ago
Considering the recent revelations that Russia is literally blowing shit up in NATO countries (Bulgaria, Czechia) and EU and NATO's lack of response, this will most likely not result in any meaningful reaction either.
simonh 5y ago
This is where professional politicians need to learn a lesson from the Great Orange One. If Buttigieg had just answered "No, I don't think our passenger planes are safe over Bellarus anymore, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to protect the safety of US citizens flying in Europe", that would have been fine.

thinkingemote 5y ago

I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? Is it like China yet? I'm guessing not as there's no visible list of banned words and phrases, but we don't see (in HN) much criticism of Russia, Belarus from there, just attacks on the hypocrisy of the West. Do you see it headed towards China, where no internal criticism is allowed?

ceejayoz 5y ago
How will you know if the answer to this is honest or censored, though?
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  For the Chinese you can tell when they cannot even refer to, say or admit certain things: e.g. massacres. But they would say "we are not being censored" For China and Russia, etc, it feels as if by mocking the hypocrisy of the West they are naively assuming that there's no such criticism from within the West. I think this is revealing but I might be wrong.
  - kofejnik 5y ago
    > For the Chinese you can tell when they cannot even refer to, say or admit certain things: e.g. massacres. But they would say "we are not being censored" It is exactly the same in Russia, you may not mention certain historical facts at all, e.g. Germany-USSR cooperation during 1939-1941
    - nzmsv 5y ago
      That's why there is a Russian language Wikipedia article about said cooperation: https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Договор_о_ненападении_между_Германией_и_Советским_Союзом https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Договор_о_ненападении_между_... and that article cites a number of print books.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        To be fair, that's likely neither hosted in Russia nor exclusively edited by Russian residents. The Chinese Wikipedia has an article on the 1989 Tienanmen Square massacre, for example. I would assume it's not available in China. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B%E4%BA%8B%E4...
    - YarickR2 5y ago
      Well, this is fine example of so-called "lie", plain and simple. You may mention it, and often it is being mentioned by all kinds of media. Things that really are frowned upon are highly controversial topics like alleged mass raping by the Red Army in Germany during WW2 . Other than that, no holds are barred, and things are discussed freely; I'd say hot topics are more frequent in Russian media than in the US one ; but clearly hotness and level of controversy is different in two blocs
      - kofejnik 5y ago
        if you're still in Russia, try posting some photos of 1939 Brest-Litovsk parade on your VK page, we'll watch from afar how it goes for you
        nzmsv 5y ago
        Like this? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_вермахта_перед_частями_РККА_в_Бресте https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_вермахта_перед_частями_Р...
        5y ago
- golergka 5y ago
  You can google my username, and get my social network accounts for the last 20 years, and a lot of details me and even my family, wikipedia article about my grandfather and his history in USSR, and so on. And then ask yourself if state propaganda would go to such trouble for a couple of comments. It's not doxing, I wouldn't use it if I wasn't completely okay with that.
gostsamo 5y ago
It is a crime to make caricatures of Vladimir Putin. Someone is downvoting this comment to death, so I'm sharing the story for the brave and curious. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05/its-now-illegal-in-russia-to-share-an-image-of-putin-as-a-gay-clown/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05...
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  It's also apparently not advisable to beat him in ice hockey. https://deadspin.com/vladimir-putin-scores-eight-goals-in-russian-hockey-g-1846867949 https://deadspin.com/vladimir-putin-scores-eight-goals-in-ru...
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  Pikabu is one of the most popular Russian websites (something like Reddit). Here's search results of Putin caricatures: https://pikabu.ru/tag/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%20%D0%9F%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD,%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0 https://pikabu.ru/tag/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D... It might be a crime, but it's not enforced enough, obviously.
  - vimy 5y ago
    The real reason for that law is probably to use it as a tool against dissidents.
struxure 5y ago
Criticism is allowed unless you have ambitions to work in government. Critique of the government has become actually quite common in the Russian stand up comedy scene. There are some exceptions, like you cannot show any public disrespect to the Head of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov (you can google how people apologise to him). Edit (forgot to mention): also, participating in anti-government protests often results in people losing their jobs or being expelled from the universities Edit 2: also, there is an ongoing crisis with the independent media: the Russian government is trying to suffocate the independent news outlets by classifying them as foreign agents (which has pretty bad practical outcomes for the news outlet)
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  > participating in anti-government protests often results in people losing their jobs or being expelled from the universities This is quickly becoming the situation in the US if you criticize popular political movements.
  - struxure 5y ago
    Not exactly... In the US, organizations use this form of self-censorship to prevent a potential backlash from the public, whereas in Russia, the bans are direct orders from the government and the employers simply don't have any choice.
    - hedora 5y ago
      Often, there is less practical difference than I’d hope for. Look at the credit card networks’ sanctions of things like allofmp3.com, for example. If you enjoy audio fiction, or short stories you might enjoy “The Revolution, brought to you by Nike”. It was written by an ad industry insider, and touches on a lot of issues regarding corporate self-censorship. (It’s a few years old, and predates Nike’s recent political activism): https://escapepod.org/2018/09/06/escape-pod-644-the-revolution-brought-to-you-by-nike-part-1/ https://escapepod.org/2018/09/06/escape-pod-644-the-revoluti...
  - morelisp 5y ago
dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
> are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? What "associated astern european states" do you mean?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Belarus probably serves as a decent example.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    Belarus aside, which ones? Because I can't think of any. Seriously, it's been over thirty years since the end of Cold War and people still think there are some eastern European states associated with Russia... Almost all of them are in the EU now with the notable exception of Ukraine which is in a state of de facto war with Russia. Even Lukashenko has a bitter-sweet relationship with Putin.
    - petre 5y ago
      There's still Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaidjan. Technically, the Caucasus region is still in Europe.
      - def_true_false 5y ago
        I've seen some consider Kazakhstan to be a part of Europe. I suspect the region stretches, depending on the speaker, far enough east to encompass the speaker's country, regardless of its location (but no further).
        petre 5y ago
        Kazahstan is in Central Asia probably because it's so big. Even their timezones are prefixed with Asia. The Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountains are the eastern limits of Europe, so everything on the Caspian's west bank is in Europe. Astrakhan is in Europe for instance.
vbezhenar 5y ago
> I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? Is it like China yet? Yes, plenty of people inside those countries do not like regime and openly discuss it on public internet websites. I don't know about China situation so I can't make a direct comparison. If you're very popular blogger and you'll make direct insults to Putin (or any other person with high position), you might be fined or even jailed, there are laws prohibiting insults against people, but those cases are very rare. And nobody hunts ordinary people. > I'm guessing not as there's no visible list of banned words and phrases, but we don't see (in HN) much criticism of Russia, Belarus from there, just attacks on the hypocrisy of the West. Huh? HN is pretty much against Russia, Belarus, etc. Those who try to defend usually are heavily downvoted and labeled as kremlin bots. Anyway people usually are gathered with similar viewpoints. Any outsiders are expelled quickly. I know web forums, where most of people are holding pro-Russian viewpoint and I know web forums, where most of people are holding pro-West viewpoint. But I know no webforum with balanced opinion. I think that for US people Republicans vs Democrats might be a close analogy.
- jiofih 5y ago
  > If you're very popular blogger and you'll make direct insults to Putin (or any other person with high position), you might be fined or even jailed > nobody hunts ordinary people Unless they have something bad to say about the regime. These don’t add up, are bloggers not ordinary people? How can you be ok with this?
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    > Unless they have something bad to say about the regime. That's not true. > are bloggers not ordinary people? No, they're influencers. > How can you be ok with this? Why wouldn't I be ok with this? Nobody should be allowed to insult anyone.
golergka 5y ago
> I know that people can joke about the west in Russia but are people allowed to make jokes about their own government in Russia and in the associated eastern european states? That's a tough question. For example, when I was active in TikTok (I grew tired of it pretty fast), I've made a lot of very critical videos that had a lot of views. In one of them, that got almost 100k views, I explicitly said that Putin and his gang are usurping power, and while the current Russian laws say that it's punishable up to 20 years in prison, I think that they deserve the death penalty. I did not get in any trouble for that. But many others from Russian Libertarian Party (which I'm a member of) have, even though they've said much less. May be they had a wider reach, or may be it's just random, I don't know. And I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of years later I'll get 5 years of prison for these TikToks.
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  thanks for your perspective! Is the chilling factor an issue there yet? It feels from your comments that it's not, that its a bit too random yet, or a bit too early?
newaccount2021 5y ago
not like America...here all of our colleges and workplaces encourage intellectual diversity and expression /s
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rsynnott 5y ago
While criticism is legal, it does significantly increase your chances of falling out a window, if you're in a prominent position. Very careless, these Kremlin critics. Interestingly, critics of repressive regimes exhibit _themed_ carelessness; those who were a bit too open in Apartheid South Africa fell down _stairs_, instead.
nzmsv 5y ago
I am very worried that the situation is headed towards China, or much worse. And the main reason I am worried is that I can see no path towards a peaceful de-escalation. It is a foregone conclusion in the West that "Russia = bad" and any attempt to say anything counter to that narrative gets you labeled a pro-Kremlin troll. Let's see how deep in the grey this comments ends up for example. Think Germany after WW1. Humiliated, defeated country. The people of such countries tend to follow leaders who promise to make them great again. When they do, they get further mockery and isolation. And I think it's been conclusively proven that this only breeds more radicalism. But most will read this as "if you are not with us then you are against us" and turn up the intensity.

cblconfederate 5y ago

That's because EU is too expanded to be able to reach consensus. Individual countries are taking action however

everybodyknows 5y ago
Can individual countries yank airport landing slots? That would get attention.

tacker2000 5y ago

As a EU citizen, this is quite hilarious. The EU is so toothless it hurts.

raverbashing 5y ago
Good, so you're in favour of an EU army? Armed invasion of Bielorussia to kidnap the guy back? The geopolitical armchair experts complain more about responses than actually giving realistic suggestions to give. (Sure, we can cut Belarus out, and see thousands of "Russian tourists" go for a holiday there right after - maybe that would be a good response?). And yes, you won't see me defending Borrell.
- jeltz 5y ago
  I agree. There is a lot of armchair whining here. Are people really in favour of an invasion of Belarus?
  - input_sh 5y ago
    Why are you talking like there's no middle between not doing anything and a full on invasion? From the top of my head: - Divert EU planes to avoid Belarus. - Prevent Belarus' aeroplanes from flying over the EU. - Increase sanctions towards Belarus officials. etc etc
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      Thanks, yes, these are realistic, and might be in the way of being implemented. (Also probably will get counted as "toothless". That's kinda of my point)
    - toyg 5y ago
      Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there has been a strong response already, and it will likely get stronger in the next few weeks.

salex89 5y ago

It has been a joke outside of Russia, also... I share your hope.

heavenlyblue 5y ago

What is the probability of this account being owned by Russian government? I would say 99% and you’re just perpetuating the same propaganda.

gostsamo 5y ago
No, much smaller. I would agree that the EU's foreign policy is a disaster because of traditionally corrupted elites. The fact that the russian elites are even more corrupted is not an excuse.
- ols 5y ago
  EU doesn’t have a joint foregin policy. Foregin relations is still an intergovernmental matter.
  - gostsamo 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Union_for_Foreign_Affairs_and_Security_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Uni...
    - toyg 5y ago
      Yeah, the HR role has been systematically sabotaged since its inception, by way of appointing weaker and weaker nominees and starving it of any real power. At the moment it's a glorified PR position, with no decisional power whatsoever. Javier Solana effectively lost the battle for being the EU "foreign minister" and since then it's all been about individual member states. Chances are this will not change until there is a serious rethinking of the European role in NATO. As long as the big decisions are taken there, there is no real role for an EU "ministry" beyond trade interests.
  - ols 5y ago
    „The Common Foreign and Security Policy […] deals only with a specific part of the EU's external relations, which domains include mainly Trade and Commercial Policy and other areas such as funding to third countries, etc” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Po...

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jahnu 5y ago

There is this reaction in internet communities to demand a kind of reaction from a democratic organisation that would only be possible in an autocracy.

ruairispain 5y ago

The difference here is the European politicians will be scared shitless if they fly over a country where they think they might get arrested. Politicians scare easily and will protect themselves. If journalists can be arrested so can politicians.

def_true_false 5y ago

Considering the recent revelations that Russia is literally blowing shit up in NATO countries (Bulgaria, Czechia) and EU and NATO's lack of response, this will most likely not result in any meaningful reaction either.

simonh 5y ago

This is where professional politicians need to learn a lesson from the Great Orange One. If Buttigieg had just answered "No, I don't think our passenger planes are safe over Bellarus anymore, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to protect the safety of US citizens flying in Europe", that would have been fine.