4 ms·

Refusing service to a private flight carrying a politically sensitive person is very different from hijacking a scheduled civilian airliner by threatening to sh

by mopsi 5y ago

Refusing service to a private flight carrying a politically sensitive person is very different from hijacking a scheduled civilian airliner by threatening to shoot it down if it doesn't cooperate. Refusing service is very common. For example, air routes in the Middle East can be very long because of countries that can't be flown over due to different alliances: https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20181020_MAM949.png https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e...

enriquto 5y ago
The recent incident is painted in exactly the same light by Belarus authorities. They say that the plane was diverted due to a terrorist threat. All passengers were safely evacuated, and once the threat was cleared, they were allowed to continue their trip. During their time in Belarusian soil, one passenger was detained, for completely unrelated reasons. Of course Belarusian police could not do otherwise than detain him, for they were already looking for that person. As is evident, the whole thing is a bullshit excuse to claim plausible deniability. Exactly the same as with the Bolivian plane. The only difference is which official discourse you chose to repeat.
- fpoling 5y ago
  There is an important difference. The Bolivian plane was warned sufficiently in advance and had enough fuel to flight back to Russia at that point. The Ryanair flight was forced to land with a military jet leaving the pilots no choice but to comply. But I agree that what Western Europe did to Bolivian flight backfires now badly.
  - pydry 5y ago
    It's not like Morales told why he was being barred entry to four different countries' air spaces. In both cases the pilot was lied to to capture a dissident and in neither case were the passengers in danger. Lukashenko's propaganda will get a boost from this. Indeed, it's possibly what emboldened him to try it, safe in the knowledge that Europe and the US could only condemn it hypocritically. The West loses moral authority when it pulls this shit - not only in their own countries but in dictatorships rhey are trying to sway.
    - mopsi 5y ago
      Morales-Shmorales. No-one cares about the games governments play with their private jets. This was an unprecedented attack on public scheduled intra-European passenger service that every regular person may end up using. This is a whole different category and that's why the whataboutism isn't working this time and the standard "losing moral authority" talking points sound particularly shallow and unconvicing.
      - pydry 5y ago
        Perhaps not to you. I think they'll make effective use of whataboutism on Belarussian state TV and newspapers. The similarities make it almost too easy for them.
        mopsi 5y ago
        I wouldn't call that particularly effective. Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR. No amount of propaganda can mask how shitty the life is. There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west, they were at the same starting point in 1991 after all. Limited travel is still possible and people know very well what life is like just across the border. Do the same job, get paid several times as much, and without getting molested by government thugs.
        pydry 5y ago
        >Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR. https://www.rt.com/usa/524710-psaki-belarus-bolivia-plane/ https://www.rt.com/usa/524710-psaki-belarus-bolivia-plane/ RT is already mocking the very same press secretary who justified doing this to get Snowden in 2013 for getting outraged now as she unconvincing deflects a question about it. CNN won't show that on your TV but I'll bet Belarussians will get to see it. This is not going to play out unfavorably for Lukashenko, especially if the US/Europe hits them with sanctions that bite. >There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west Realistically Ukraine is a closer model for how they'd end up if they rejected Russia and aligned more closely with the West. They are under no illusions that a quick change of allegiance will turn them into Luxembourg.
- Swenrekcah 5y ago
  Be that as it may, the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything.
  - enriquto 5y ago
    > (...) is not a valid defense for anything I'm not defending the callous behavior of Belarus. I'm just pointing that the UE/NATO criticism of it is shamefully hypocritical. Both are equally wrong in my eyes.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    > the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything. It actually is, if you are tacitly saying "and we will let them them get away with it again, and again, and again…" but "these other guys you must help me stop".
  - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
    Monkey see, monkey do. It's not a defence, it's just the nature of the beast. If you don't want the monkey to do something, you better make damn sure he doesn't see you doing it first.

by mopsi 5y ago

enriquto 5y ago

The recent incident is painted in exactly the same light by Belarus authorities. They say that the plane was diverted due to a terrorist threat. All passengers were safely evacuated, and once the threat was cleared, they were allowed to continue their trip. During their time in Belarusian soil, one passenger was detained, for completely unrelated reasons. Of course Belarusian police could not do otherwise than detain him, for they were already looking for that person. As is evident, the whole thing is a bullshit excuse to claim plausible deniability. Exactly the same as with the Bolivian plane. The only difference is which official discourse you chose to repeat.

fpoling 5y ago
There is an important difference. The Bolivian plane was warned sufficiently in advance and had enough fuel to flight back to Russia at that point. The Ryanair flight was forced to land with a military jet leaving the pilots no choice but to comply. But I agree that what Western Europe did to Bolivian flight backfires now badly.
- pydry 5y ago
  It's not like Morales told why he was being barred entry to four different countries' air spaces. In both cases the pilot was lied to to capture a dissident and in neither case were the passengers in danger. Lukashenko's propaganda will get a boost from this. Indeed, it's possibly what emboldened him to try it, safe in the knowledge that Europe and the US could only condemn it hypocritically. The West loses moral authority when it pulls this shit - not only in their own countries but in dictatorships rhey are trying to sway.
  - mopsi 5y ago
    Morales-Shmorales. No-one cares about the games governments play with their private jets. This was an unprecedented attack on public scheduled intra-European passenger service that every regular person may end up using. This is a whole different category and that's why the whataboutism isn't working this time and the standard "losing moral authority" talking points sound particularly shallow and unconvicing.
    - pydry 5y ago
      Perhaps not to you. I think they'll make effective use of whataboutism on Belarussian state TV and newspapers. The similarities make it almost too easy for them.
      - mopsi 5y ago
        I wouldn't call that particularly effective. Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR. No amount of propaganda can mask how shitty the life is. There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west, they were at the same starting point in 1991 after all. Limited travel is still possible and people know very well what life is like just across the border. Do the same job, get paid several times as much, and without getting molested by government thugs.
        pydry 5y ago
        >Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR. https://www.rt.com/usa/524710-psaki-belarus-bolivia-plane/ https://www.rt.com/usa/524710-psaki-belarus-bolivia-plane/ RT is already mocking the very same press secretary who justified doing this to get Snowden in 2013 for getting outraged now as she unconvincing deflects a question about it. CNN won't show that on your TV but I'll bet Belarussians will get to see it. This is not going to play out unfavorably for Lukashenko, especially if the US/Europe hits them with sanctions that bite. >There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west Realistically Ukraine is a closer model for how they'd end up if they rejected Russia and aligned more closely with the West. They are under no illusions that a quick change of allegiance will turn them into Luxembourg.
Swenrekcah 5y ago
Be that as it may, the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything.
- enriquto 5y ago
  > (...) is not a valid defense for anything I'm not defending the callous behavior of Belarus. I'm just pointing that the UE/NATO criticism of it is shamefully hypocritical. Both are equally wrong in my eyes.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything. It actually is, if you are tacitly saying "and we will let them them get away with it again, and again, and again…" but "these other guys you must help me stop".
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
  Monkey see, monkey do. It's not a defence, it's just the nature of the beast. If you don't want the monkey to do something, you better make damn sure he doesn't see you doing it first.