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I remember I listened to one of Ramsey's radio shows about a decade ago. A caller said that they had about $50,000 of credit card debt, and was asking about the

I remember I listened to one of Ramsey's radio shows about a decade ago. A caller said that they had about $50,000 of credit card debt, and was asking about the best way to lower that debt. Dave gave a few basic truisms about the "debt snowball", but shockingly he then mentioned that this person should increase the amount of money they're giving to the church, since without Jesus's help you got nothing. I'm not religious, but that always seemed so baffling (and dangerous). Surely a deity would understand you are hurting your long-term giving-to-Jesus potential if you're constantly broke. That led me to research him a bit, and this guy is a borderline cult-leader, and it's a bit upsetting that he'll be worth more than I ever will be.

Qub3d 5y ago
In high school I breathed the "gospel" of Dave Ramsey. I was essentially a religiously-bent FIRE [0] advocate. What I have come to realize is that Dave is like an AA leader. His advice makes a lot of sense if you are in a situation where you need to curtail excessive spending, and (benefit of the doubt, I agree with you that the increased tithe is gross) I could see how Dave is trying to help people find a reason to spend less on themselves. Just as I wouldn't tell a recovering alcoholic the goal is to drink moderately, I wouldn't tell a person considering bankruptcy that some debt is good. For people who can control their budgets, though -- Dave's advice may limit your options. Debt when managed right is a great tool for boosting liquidity when you need it. That's why even though Dave (and high school Past-me) would shake their heads at this, I have a small loan for a used car and I have a credit card. [0]: "Financial Independence, Retire Early." Still not a bad idea overall, minus the dogma (see https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/)
- tombert 5y ago
  Did they make you watch Ramsey's videos in high school? He released some idiotic video lecture series for high schools, that we spent almost an entire semester watching. I got to learn about how evil student loans are from an official high school class. I realize that his advice isn't bad most of the time (minus the Jesus stuff), but it's incredibly simple, and it "works" in the same way that most self-help books "work", in that if have no organization/framework for fixing a problem, adding anything will probably be a little helpful. But like self-help books, it's extremely simple and reductive. (to be clear, I'm talking about the time-management "getting things done" self-help books; I place absolutely no credibility to any self help book that claims to have any understanding of "quantum physics").
  - Qub3d 5y ago
    No, I received several of his books as gifts, then watched videos on my own volition after reading them.
Syonyk 5y ago
Getting upset that someone else is worth more than you will be is a short path to endless despair... though don't confuse "Worth more now" with "Always worth more." Lots of ways to lose an awful lot of money. As far as "deeply in debt and giving more to the church," it doesn't make sense from a pure "numbers" perspective, but it does make sense from an "attitude" perspective - and I'll suggest that in most cases where someone is $50k in credit card debt (interest on that being in the range of $15k/yr if you've got the sort of interest rates someone stumbling into that situation likely has), it's less a "numbers" problem than an "attitude" problem. If you come at finances from a "My parents/friends/social media comparisons have X, I ought to have X, so I will go obtain X regardless of my ability to afford it!" sort of perspective (which is a common enough way to get into that sort of trouble with credit cards), then shifting to a "It's not my resources in the first place, I'm simply managing God's resources that He's granted me" perspective can be worth a lot, and giving to your local church (or other appropriate organization, though the local church is often the best answer) helps reframe those attitudes that got you into trouble in the first place. In most of the "Dave Ramsey" threads I've come across (in places that tend to have their financial heads screwed on straight), the attitude I see is, "Well, based on the numbers, Dave Ramsey's advice is far from optimal, so, clearly, the best solution based on numbers is..." And if you had your head screwed on straight with financial numbers, you wouldn't be calling into a radio show about your $50k in credit card debt. Either you wouldn't have it in the first place, or you would have it, for a specific purpose, with a plan to resolve it on your own schedule, and therefore wouldn't be calling in about it. There exists a rather large chunk of the population who simply has never learned good financial skills. You run across it constantly if you listen - think about people who leave a balance on credit cards "to help their credit score," or work on a "I have money in the bank, therefore I can buy this," or "Oh, hey, I got a raise, time to take on more monthly payments!" point of view. If you don't know any, thank your parents for teaching you what they did, and maybe talk about money a bit more with friends. This sort of thinking is found across the entire range of incomes, and there are plenty of people who make $500k/yr and are still trapped in a debt-based, paycheck-to-paycheck sort of cycle with zero buffer. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" goes into some great detail on the differences between "looking wealthy by the world's standards" and "actually being wealthy." An awful lot of "Fancy home and luxury cars in the driveway" families that look wealthy, aren't. They're drowning in debt. Meanwhile, the researchers found that actual millionaires (and this was published back in 1996, so think $1.7M-2M today) tended to live in mid-sized homes, and drive things like "A Toyota Camry" or "A Honda Civic." Often purchased used. Reliable, non-flashy transportation that wasn't going to leave them stranded, but also didn't cost a small fortune to purchase or run. If you're in the position to be arguing that Ramsey's approach isn't correct, because it's not financially optimal... you're simply not his target audience.
Merad 5y ago
This is part of the prosperity gospel that some evangelical Christians believe. It may feel like you don’t have enough money to give more to the church on top of the demands of your life. It might feel like it’s irresponsible. But that’s just god testing your faith. By opening your wallet to the church you’re demonstrating your faith and showing that you’re worthy to receive the financial gifts and success that god _wants_ to give you.
- Brendinooo 5y ago
  Tithing != prosperity gospel (at least not necessarily; comment you responded to didn’t give enough context)
  - tombert 5y ago
    I usually associate “prosperity gospel” with scammy televangelists like Peter Popoff or Kenneth Copeland; I don’t think Dave Ramsay was suggesting that in my anecdote, just regular tithing.
antonvs 5y ago
> Surely a deity would understand you are hurting your long-term giving-to-Jesus potential if you're constantly broke. As George Carlin put it, "He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money!"

Qub3d 5y ago

In high school I breathed the "gospel" of Dave Ramsey. I was essentially a religiously-bent FIRE [0] advocate. What I have come to realize is that Dave is like an AA leader. His advice makes a lot of sense if you are in a situation where you need to curtail excessive spending, and (benefit of the doubt, I agree with you that the increased tithe is gross) I could see how Dave is trying to help people find a reason to spend less on themselves. Just as I wouldn't tell a recovering alcoholic the goal is to drink moderately, I wouldn't tell a person considering bankruptcy that some debt is good. For people who can control their budgets, though -- Dave's advice may limit your options. Debt when managed right is a great tool for boosting liquidity when you need it. That's why even though Dave (and high school Past-me) would shake their heads at this, I have a small loan for a used car and I have a credit card. [0]: "Financial Independence, Retire Early." Still not a bad idea overall, minus the dogma (see https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/)

tombert 5y ago
Did they make you watch Ramsey's videos in high school? He released some idiotic video lecture series for high schools, that we spent almost an entire semester watching. I got to learn about how evil student loans are from an official high school class. I realize that his advice isn't bad most of the time (minus the Jesus stuff), but it's incredibly simple, and it "works" in the same way that most self-help books "work", in that if have no organization/framework for fixing a problem, adding anything will probably be a little helpful. But like self-help books, it's extremely simple and reductive. (to be clear, I'm talking about the time-management "getting things done" self-help books; I place absolutely no credibility to any self help book that claims to have any understanding of "quantum physics").
- Qub3d 5y ago
  No, I received several of his books as gifts, then watched videos on my own volition after reading them.

Syonyk 5y ago

Getting upset that someone else is worth more than you will be is a short path to endless despair... though don't confuse "Worth more now" with "Always worth more." Lots of ways to lose an awful lot of money. As far as "deeply in debt and giving more to the church," it doesn't make sense from a pure "numbers" perspective, but it does make sense from an "attitude" perspective - and I'll suggest that in most cases where someone is $50k in credit card debt (interest on that being in the range of $15k/yr if you've got the sort of interest rates someone stumbling into that situation likely has), it's less a "numbers" problem than an "attitude" problem. If you come at finances from a "My parents/friends/social media comparisons have X, I ought to have X, so I will go obtain X regardless of my ability to afford it!" sort of perspective (which is a common enough way to get into that sort of trouble with credit cards), then shifting to a "It's not my resources in the first place, I'm simply managing God's resources that He's granted me" perspective can be worth a lot, and giving to your local church (or other appropriate organization, though the local church is often the best answer) helps reframe those attitudes that got you into trouble in the first place. In most of the "Dave Ramsey" threads I've come across (in places that tend to have their financial heads screwed on straight), the attitude I see is, "Well, based on the numbers, Dave Ramsey's advice is far from optimal, so, clearly, the best solution based on numbers is..." And if you had your head screwed on straight with financial numbers, you wouldn't be calling into a radio show about your $50k in credit card debt. Either you wouldn't have it in the first place, or you would have it, for a specific purpose, with a plan to resolve it on your own schedule, and therefore wouldn't be calling in about it. There exists a rather large chunk of the population who simply has never learned good financial skills. You run across it constantly if you listen - think about people who leave a balance on credit cards "to help their credit score," or work on a "I have money in the bank, therefore I can buy this," or "Oh, hey, I got a raise, time to take on more monthly payments!" point of view. If you don't know any, thank your parents for teaching you what they did, and maybe talk about money a bit more with friends. This sort of thinking is found across the entire range of incomes, and there are plenty of people who make $500k/yr and are still trapped in a debt-based, paycheck-to-paycheck sort of cycle with zero buffer. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" goes into some great detail on the differences between "looking wealthy by the world's standards" and "actually being wealthy." An awful lot of "Fancy home and luxury cars in the driveway" families that look wealthy, aren't. They're drowning in debt. Meanwhile, the researchers found that actual millionaires (and this was published back in 1996, so think $1.7M-2M today) tended to live in mid-sized homes, and drive things like "A Toyota Camry" or "A Honda Civic." Often purchased used. Reliable, non-flashy transportation that wasn't going to leave them stranded, but also didn't cost a small fortune to purchase or run. If you're in the position to be arguing that Ramsey's approach isn't correct, because it's not financially optimal... you're simply not his target audience.

Merad 5y ago

This is part of the prosperity gospel that some evangelical Christians believe. It may feel like you don’t have enough money to give more to the church on top of the demands of your life. It might feel like it’s irresponsible. But that’s just god testing your faith. By opening your wallet to the church you’re demonstrating your faith and showing that you’re worthy to receive the financial gifts and success that god _wants_ to give you.

Brendinooo 5y ago
Tithing != prosperity gospel (at least not necessarily; comment you responded to didn’t give enough context)
- tombert 5y ago
  I usually associate “prosperity gospel” with scammy televangelists like Peter Popoff or Kenneth Copeland; I don’t think Dave Ramsay was suggesting that in my anecdote, just regular tithing.

antonvs 5y ago

> Surely a deity would understand you are hurting your long-term giving-to-Jesus potential if you're constantly broke. As George Carlin put it, "He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money!"