5 ms·

I interviewed for a position there. Dropped out when I found out they require their employees to go through their financial management course, which is "faith-b

I interviewed for a position there. Dropped out when I found out they require their employees to go through their financial management course, which is "faith-based".

sp332 5y ago
Being "faith-based" is more of a marketing gimmick. The advice just has random Bible verses stuck into it. It's a way to convince churches to offer the courses with an endorsement. Which is kinda icky, but different icky.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  Yes... it's become quite the irritation to me. Crown isn't an awful lot better. They're both straight up secular financial wisdom with "verses sprinkled on top for seasoning." Believe the Bible or not, one can (probably) reasonably enough assume that if you try to do something based on Biblical financial wisdom, it should end up at least somewhat at odds with what looks ideal for wealth accumulation in our modern, capitalist, credit-based financial systems. My major problem with Ramsey is that his whole motivation for people to get out of debt is just so they can consume more later - "Live like nobody else, so later you can live like nobody else." Luxury cars, big house, and all the trappings. It's woven throughout his material, and while I won't argue that it's not an appealing thing to offer as a reason to get your financial house in order, I'm far from convinced it's remotely Biblical. Also, while it's a minor point, given the prevalence of credit card theft/fraud/etc (which I've dealt with... oh, far more often than is reasonable, every year or two I get a card re-issued, to the point that I have certain cards I just use for recurring payments because I'm so tired of having to update everything), using debit cards for everything is a great annoyance. Having my CC number stolen and someone else's money going missing is far less annoying than having my bank account drained and a check bounce. Yes, I'm not liable either way, but "There's an extra $1000 on Discover that I didn't put there" is their problem first and foremost, not my problem. Crown Financial Ministries is somewhat better, but (having moderated a version of it a few years back), it's still "secular financial wisdom with a few more verses sprinkled on top." Just a bit less materialistic than Ramsey (which, alone, is reason to prefer it). I've yet to find a course that actually starts with the Bible. A long form study, starting with going through the (many and verbose) chunks of the Bible that talk about wealth, money, resources, etc, and then work from there to what it looks like in the modern world. There's plenty in there about saving for the future and managing resources wisely, but I'm reasonably certain getting from "What the Bible says about money" to "And therefore you should save for a Mercedes!" requires more than a bit of a stretch. Ramsey is fairly good at the "You are in deep financial trouble, get your stuff together!" initial motivation, and I certainly won't argue that his methods don't work for a lot of people - at least to the "Get your high interest revolving debt paid down, get an emergency fund, and stop buying trivial stupid crap" level, but I really don't agree with his longer term methods (which tend to look an awful lot like "Buy Dave Ramsey branded mutual funds," which are fairly crap funds, last I looked - but he gets a kickback). If you know of anything better, I'm certainly interested in what's out there. But the state of "Biblically based financial wisdom" in the US, at least, is pretty well lacking from what I can see.
tombert 5y ago
I can't imagine that's legal, right? I least I would really hope it's illegal. I'm not a lawyer but I was reasonably certain that most jobs cannot have a religious requirement. If Dave Ramsey is doing that then he should be sued.
- sp332 5y ago
  It's not that weird to require employees of a company selling financial management courses to know the material.
Syonyk 5y ago
Unless I'm missing something, the entire product and purpose of the Dave Ramsey company is their financial courses, which they claim are from a Christian perspective, and they certainly sprinkle Bible verses throughout for flavor. "Knowing the thing the company you're considering working for is literally all about" doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to me as a requirement for a position. Would you find it odd for a car dealership to require a driver's license for a car salesman position, or "having driven a car in the past"? I'm just a bit confused that you would get so far as to interview for a position with them, without realizing that their entire product is "faith-based financial courses."
- joombaga 5y ago
  Well this was an IT position. If a car dealership had those requirements for an IT position then yes, I would find that odd. I knew what the product was, but I didn't know about the course requirement. At the time I needed to balance my personal ethics and comfort level with the need to improve my financial situation and mental health. Interviewing was a good way to evaluate if the job would do so, and getting the interview was not as much effort as I think you're implying. Edit: I should say that I did not find the course requirement _super_ odd. Maybe it's standard for companies with this type of product. But it was too odd for me personally. None of my previous employers have required me to use their products, and I've objected any time they got close. Perhaps that is a privilege.
  - welcome_dragon 5y ago
    You dodged a bullet

I interviewed for a position there. Dropped out when I found out they require their employees to go through their financial management course, which is "faith-based".

sp332 5y ago

Being "faith-based" is more of a marketing gimmick. The advice just has random Bible verses stuck into it. It's a way to convince churches to offer the courses with an endorsement. Which is kinda icky, but different icky.

Syonyk 5y ago
Yes... it's become quite the irritation to me. Crown isn't an awful lot better. They're both straight up secular financial wisdom with "verses sprinkled on top for seasoning." Believe the Bible or not, one can (probably) reasonably enough assume that if you try to do something based on Biblical financial wisdom, it should end up at least somewhat at odds with what looks ideal for wealth accumulation in our modern, capitalist, credit-based financial systems. My major problem with Ramsey is that his whole motivation for people to get out of debt is just so they can consume more later - "Live like nobody else, so later you can live like nobody else." Luxury cars, big house, and all the trappings. It's woven throughout his material, and while I won't argue that it's not an appealing thing to offer as a reason to get your financial house in order, I'm far from convinced it's remotely Biblical. Also, while it's a minor point, given the prevalence of credit card theft/fraud/etc (which I've dealt with... oh, far more often than is reasonable, every year or two I get a card re-issued, to the point that I have certain cards I just use for recurring payments because I'm so tired of having to update everything), using debit cards for everything is a great annoyance. Having my CC number stolen and someone else's money going missing is far less annoying than having my bank account drained and a check bounce. Yes, I'm not liable either way, but "There's an extra $1000 on Discover that I didn't put there" is their problem first and foremost, not my problem. Crown Financial Ministries is somewhat better, but (having moderated a version of it a few years back), it's still "secular financial wisdom with a few more verses sprinkled on top." Just a bit less materialistic than Ramsey (which, alone, is reason to prefer it). I've yet to find a course that actually starts with the Bible. A long form study, starting with going through the (many and verbose) chunks of the Bible that talk about wealth, money, resources, etc, and then work from there to what it looks like in the modern world. There's plenty in there about saving for the future and managing resources wisely, but I'm reasonably certain getting from "What the Bible says about money" to "And therefore you should save for a Mercedes!" requires more than a bit of a stretch. Ramsey is fairly good at the "You are in deep financial trouble, get your stuff together!" initial motivation, and I certainly won't argue that his methods don't work for a lot of people - at least to the "Get your high interest revolving debt paid down, get an emergency fund, and stop buying trivial stupid crap" level, but I really don't agree with his longer term methods (which tend to look an awful lot like "Buy Dave Ramsey branded mutual funds," which are fairly crap funds, last I looked - but he gets a kickback). If you know of anything better, I'm certainly interested in what's out there. But the state of "Biblically based financial wisdom" in the US, at least, is pretty well lacking from what I can see.

tombert 5y ago

I can't imagine that's legal, right? I least I would really hope it's illegal. I'm not a lawyer but I was reasonably certain that most jobs cannot have a religious requirement. If Dave Ramsey is doing that then he should be sued.

sp332 5y ago
It's not that weird to require employees of a company selling financial management courses to know the material.

Syonyk 5y ago

Unless I'm missing something, the entire product and purpose of the Dave Ramsey company is their financial courses, which they claim are from a Christian perspective, and they certainly sprinkle Bible verses throughout for flavor. "Knowing the thing the company you're considering working for is literally all about" doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to me as a requirement for a position. Would you find it odd for a car dealership to require a driver's license for a car salesman position, or "having driven a car in the past"? I'm just a bit confused that you would get so far as to interview for a position with them, without realizing that their entire product is "faith-based financial courses."

joombaga 5y ago
Well this was an IT position. If a car dealership had those requirements for an IT position then yes, I would find that odd. I knew what the product was, but I didn't know about the course requirement. At the time I needed to balance my personal ethics and comfort level with the need to improve my financial situation and mental health. Interviewing was a good way to evaluate if the job would do so, and getting the interview was not as much effort as I think you're implying. Edit: I should say that I did not find the course requirement _super_ odd. Maybe it's standard for companies with this type of product. But it was too odd for me personally. None of my previous employers have required me to use their products, and I've objected any time they got close. Perhaps that is a privilege.
- welcome_dragon 5y ago
  You dodged a bullet