3 ms·

Protocols like e-mail, Mastodon and Matrix where the server-to-server protocol is decentralized/peer-to-peer but clients interact with the network through desig

by 3np 5y ago

Protocols like e-mail, Mastodon and Matrix where the server-to-server protocol is decentralized/peer-to-peer but clients interact with the network through designated servers are generally considered "federated" (which can be either considered as distinct from or a subset of "decentralized") So the author seems to take "decentralized" here to mean "fully decentralized and peer-to-peer", which is indeed an unconventionally strong definition. But later on, they mention IRC, which is centralized by any definition... Actually, the author doesn't seem to be working from a strong definition at all and they seem to have given this very shallow thought and research.

tssva 5y ago
Their definition seems less strong and different than portrayed in your comment. Below is the definition from the article. "To clarify what I mean by decentralised: applications whose main purpose is fulfilled as part of a network, where that network is not reliant on any preordained nodes. Decentralised applications are also known as “federated”. There is also a more specific term “distributed”, also known as “peer to peer”. I won’t cover the distinction with the more specific terms because it’s not relevant here. I use the word application in a looser sense, to also cover protocols and specifications."
- 3np 5y ago
  I somehow glanced over this, thanks for pointing it out. This definition suggests that "federated" is strictly equal to "decentralized", which is coincidentally not strictly in conflict with what I wrote (though a very unorthodox definition of federated, as it doesn't imply any federation). Even so, IRC has no business in this list per the authors definition.
  - mastax 5y ago
    > Even so, IRC has no business in this list per the authors definition. The "network" part is arguable, but IRC does not require any pre-ordained nodes, which matches the author's definition. It's a small part of full decentralization, but an important one. Being able to point your Facebook Messenger client at a different server would be a big step.
    - Taek 5y ago
      That's not decentralized, that's just open source.
    - Zak 5y ago
      > Being able to point your Facebook Messenger client at a different server would be a big step. Interestingly, you used to be able to do the inverse: point your XMPP client at Facebook Messenger. I'm pretty sure they never supported federation, but you could connect clients to multiple servers and have a relatively seamless experience from a single client.
rapnie 5y ago
> Protocols like e-mail, Mastodon and Matrix I must correct you here on "Protocols like Mastodon". The protocol that underlies the Fediverse is the W3C ActivityPub Recommendation [0] and making that distinction is really important. Not doing so would encourage centralization in the same ways as discussed elsewhere in this thread for Email vs. Gmail. Mastodon is just a fediverse app that was an early adopter of ActivityPub, and managed to become quite popular. Part of this due to a better productization, and the jumpstart this gave them offering the best features first. To many newcomers Fediverse === Mastodon, but - while understandable - this is massively shortselling the interop capabilities of the protocol. What has already happened by Mastodon dominance is that they are driving the technological direction, but not necessarily in the best possible way and to the overall benefit of the Fediverse. They have a custom client API for instance that is becoming a de-facto standard, adopted by others out of convenience. [0] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
- 3np 5y ago
  Great clarification - thank you for calling it out.
- rakoo 5y ago
  Your point would be true if ActivityPub was a properly defined specification, but it isn't. It is voluntarily vague in many places to accommodate for the differences in implementations, which means that each implementation needs to understand how other software works to interoperate. So in practice it is more accurate to say "Protocol like Mastodon", because even if you can talk with Mastodon it doesn't mean you can talk with Pleroma or Pixelfeed or others. More details here: https://overengineer.dev/blog/2019/01/13/activitypub-final-thoughts-one-year-later.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2019/01/13/activitypub-final-t...

by 3np 5y ago

tssva 5y ago

Their definition seems less strong and different than portrayed in your comment. Below is the definition from the article. "To clarify what I mean by decentralised: applications whose main purpose is fulfilled as part of a network, where that network is not reliant on any preordained nodes. Decentralised applications are also known as “federated”. There is also a more specific term “distributed”, also known as “peer to peer”. I won’t cover the distinction with the more specific terms because it’s not relevant here. I use the word application in a looser sense, to also cover protocols and specifications."

3np 5y ago
I somehow glanced over this, thanks for pointing it out. This definition suggests that "federated" is strictly equal to "decentralized", which is coincidentally not strictly in conflict with what I wrote (though a very unorthodox definition of federated, as it doesn't imply any federation). Even so, IRC has no business in this list per the authors definition.
- mastax 5y ago
  > Even so, IRC has no business in this list per the authors definition. The "network" part is arguable, but IRC does not require any pre-ordained nodes, which matches the author's definition. It's a small part of full decentralization, but an important one. Being able to point your Facebook Messenger client at a different server would be a big step.
  - Taek 5y ago
    That's not decentralized, that's just open source.
  - Zak 5y ago
    > Being able to point your Facebook Messenger client at a different server would be a big step. Interestingly, you used to be able to do the inverse: point your XMPP client at Facebook Messenger. I'm pretty sure they never supported federation, but you could connect clients to multiple servers and have a relatively seamless experience from a single client.

rapnie 5y ago

> Protocols like e-mail, Mastodon and Matrix I must correct you here on "Protocols like Mastodon". The protocol that underlies the Fediverse is the W3C ActivityPub Recommendation [0] and making that distinction is really important. Not doing so would encourage centralization in the same ways as discussed elsewhere in this thread for Email vs. Gmail. Mastodon is just a fediverse app that was an early adopter of ActivityPub, and managed to become quite popular. Part of this due to a better productization, and the jumpstart this gave them offering the best features first. To many newcomers Fediverse === Mastodon, but - while understandable - this is massively shortselling the interop capabilities of the protocol. What has already happened by Mastodon dominance is that they are driving the technological direction, but not necessarily in the best possible way and to the overall benefit of the Fediverse. They have a custom client API for instance that is becoming a de-facto standard, adopted by others out of convenience. [0] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/

3np 5y ago
Great clarification - thank you for calling it out.
rakoo 5y ago
Your point would be true if ActivityPub was a properly defined specification, but it isn't. It is voluntarily vague in many places to accommodate for the differences in implementations, which means that each implementation needs to understand how other software works to interoperate. So in practice it is more accurate to say "Protocol like Mastodon", because even if you can talk with Mastodon it doesn't mean you can talk with Pleroma or Pixelfeed or others. More details here: https://overengineer.dev/blog/2019/01/13/activitypub-final-thoughts-one-year-later.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2019/01/13/activitypub-final-t...