7 ms·

Dave Ramsey sues former employees for making blog posts about leaving company

119 points by sithlord 5y ago

gnicholas 5y ago
Description of the underlying accusations [1] and response from the company [2]: 1: https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-being-called-a-jerk-for-his-stands-on-sex-and-covid/ https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-... 2: https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-response/ https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-re...
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  I read the initial article but missed the petulant response. They intended that stupid response to be read by lots of people, I don't know how they thought it would help them. This in particular: > Yes, you will be in a building where 1000 people hate you, but we will assign security to protect you….that is how cults do it I understand there's jokes in here, but I think the setup is earnest. The part where they invite the author to be in a building with 1000 people who hate him, I don't think that's in jest. They're talking about a Worship Service, and most of their employees, as I understand it, are Christians. I hope they were embarrassed and ashamed to have it claimed that they hate someone.
  - welcome_dragon 5y ago
    Not most, all employees are "Christan". You have to be. No way could you get hired there otherwise.
- schemescape 5y ago
  Not sure former employees are the ones making Dave look bad: > “We have people calling in, they are wanting to cancel stuff for a live event in May — let me tell you how much of your money I am going to give you back if you don’t come for the coronavirus in May,” he said. “ZERO. I am keeping your money. You are a wuss.”
JustARandomGuy 5y ago
Maybe about 15 years ago, I was driving through Kansas with my dad. Dad was going through the radio channels to find something to listen to, and ended up on the Dave Ramsey show. One call has stuck with me all these years: the caller had recently graduated high school, was working for $12/hour on some low-skill job, and was interested in majoring in a STEM major. The caller had one question: should they save up money to go to college (on their $12/hour job) or take out loans for college? And I don't remember Ramsey's response, but it essentially boiled down to recommending that they save money working their current job, and then go to college. That answer has always struck me as completely bonkers - sure debt can be bad, but this is a case where debt is good: it's going to be much easier paying off college loans with a high paying college-requiring job in STEM than saving up on a low-paying job. Since then I have always regarded Ramsey and anyone who recommends him with disgust. Totally willing to hear anybody who wants to change my mind, but at least for now I consider these people as charlatans.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > it's going to be much easier paying off college loans with a high paying college-requiring job in STEM Only works if you graduate with a STEM degree Otherwise there you go stuck with debt
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  If you're really in that situation, you should attend community college, which you can easily afford out of your $12 / hour wages. In the more likely case that you sort of feel like you might give it a shot, Dave Ramsey's advice looks even better: dropping out will only waste money you already had if you were paying out of your savings. It will waste a lot more than that otherwise.
  - warent 5y ago
    > If you're really in that situation, you should attend community college ... dropping out will only waste money In what situation? The way your post reads comes across as vaguely resentful of people who aren't upper class. Most high school graduates cannot afford university out of pocket. That doesn't mean that they need to lower their bar or that they're somehow at a higher risk of dropping out. Your comment is coming completely out of left field.
joombaga 5y ago
I interviewed for a position there. Dropped out when I found out they require their employees to go through their financial management course, which is "faith-based".
- sp332 5y ago
  Being "faith-based" is more of a marketing gimmick. The advice just has random Bible verses stuck into it. It's a way to convince churches to offer the courses with an endorsement. Which is kinda icky, but different icky.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    Yes... it's become quite the irritation to me. Crown isn't an awful lot better. They're both straight up secular financial wisdom with "verses sprinkled on top for seasoning." Believe the Bible or not, one can (probably) reasonably enough assume that if you try to do something based on Biblical financial wisdom, it should end up at least somewhat at odds with what looks ideal for wealth accumulation in our modern, capitalist, credit-based financial systems. My major problem with Ramsey is that his whole motivation for people to get out of debt is just so they can consume more later - "Live like nobody else, so later you can live like nobody else." Luxury cars, big house, and all the trappings. It's woven throughout his material, and while I won't argue that it's not an appealing thing to offer as a reason to get your financial house in order, I'm far from convinced it's remotely Biblical. Also, while it's a minor point, given the prevalence of credit card theft/fraud/etc (which I've dealt with... oh, far more often than is reasonable, every year or two I get a card re-issued, to the point that I have certain cards I just use for recurring payments because I'm so tired of having to update everything), using debit cards for everything is a great annoyance. Having my CC number stolen and someone else's money going missing is far less annoying than having my bank account drained and a check bounce. Yes, I'm not liable either way, but "There's an extra $1000 on Discover that I didn't put there" is their problem first and foremost, not my problem. Crown Financial Ministries is somewhat better, but (having moderated a version of it a few years back), it's still "secular financial wisdom with a few more verses sprinkled on top." Just a bit less materialistic than Ramsey (which, alone, is reason to prefer it). I've yet to find a course that actually starts with the Bible. A long form study, starting with going through the (many and verbose) chunks of the Bible that talk about wealth, money, resources, etc, and then work from there to what it looks like in the modern world. There's plenty in there about saving for the future and managing resources wisely, but I'm reasonably certain getting from "What the Bible says about money" to "And therefore you should save for a Mercedes!" requires more than a bit of a stretch. Ramsey is fairly good at the "You are in deep financial trouble, get your stuff together!" initial motivation, and I certainly won't argue that his methods don't work for a lot of people - at least to the "Get your high interest revolving debt paid down, get an emergency fund, and stop buying trivial stupid crap" level, but I really don't agree with his longer term methods (which tend to look an awful lot like "Buy Dave Ramsey branded mutual funds," which are fairly crap funds, last I looked - but he gets a kickback). If you know of anything better, I'm certainly interested in what's out there. But the state of "Biblically based financial wisdom" in the US, at least, is pretty well lacking from what I can see.
headcanon 5y ago
For context, Dave Ramsey is a popular radio/internet personality that gives financial advice and presumably helps people get out of debt. I've seen him pop up on my feed occasionally but never paid him much attention. Sounds like that was for the best. I found a video that elaborates on some of the abuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXKsDjACZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXKsDjACZA
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  I've watched a few episodes on Youtube. For sophisticated people: 1) his advice is not for you 2) he is a bible-thumper, so most of his advice doesn't apply after 1970 (post-modernism). His tune would change after a divorce. 3) He says school debt should be shared, which is even worse than paying for foodie calls. Legally, school debt in the US remains with the borrower and is not shared in divorce settlements, so there's no good reason to pay for somebody else's school debt. For people with no financial knowledge: 1) Dave is better than nothing. Personally I find watching his shows useful to understand societal financial illiteracy at large, rather than for anything Dave says. I once dated somebody who was innumerate (couldn't understand numbers or budgets.) That's a level of financial illiteracy you don't want in your life, trust me, since they can make a financial blunder at any time that will end your relationship: "Hey, I bought (got a loan) a new car yesterday. Can you just pay for the expenses?"
- peter303 5y ago
  DR has two points: 1) Any debt is bad including purchase mortgages and college loans. More sophisticated financial advisers believe some debts are better than others. 2) DR has a multi-step solution for paying off debts. This I believe is practical because it divides a large problem into more manageable pieces.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
tombert 5y ago
I remember I listened to one of Ramsey's radio shows about a decade ago. A caller said that they had about $50,000 of credit card debt, and was asking about the best way to lower that debt. Dave gave a few basic truisms about the "debt snowball", but shockingly he then mentioned that this person should increase the amount of money they're giving to the church, since without Jesus's help you got nothing. I'm not religious, but that always seemed so baffling (and dangerous). Surely a deity would understand you are hurting your long-term giving-to-Jesus potential if you're constantly broke. That led me to research him a bit, and this guy is a borderline cult-leader, and it's a bit upsetting that he'll be worth more than I ever will be.
- Qub3d 5y ago
  In high school I breathed the "gospel" of Dave Ramsey. I was essentially a religiously-bent FIRE [0] advocate. What I have come to realize is that Dave is like an AA leader. His advice makes a lot of sense if you are in a situation where you need to curtail excessive spending, and (benefit of the doubt, I agree with you that the increased tithe is gross) I could see how Dave is trying to help people find a reason to spend less on themselves. Just as I wouldn't tell a recovering alcoholic the goal is to drink moderately, I wouldn't tell a person considering bankruptcy that some debt is good. For people who can control their budgets, though -- Dave's advice may limit your options. Debt when managed right is a great tool for boosting liquidity when you need it. That's why even though Dave (and high school Past-me) would shake their heads at this, I have a small loan for a used car and I have a credit card. [0]: "Financial Independence, Retire Early." Still not a bad idea overall, minus the dogma (see https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/)
  - tombert 5y ago
    Did they make you watch Ramsey's videos in high school? He released some idiotic video lecture series for high schools, that we spent almost an entire semester watching. I got to learn about how evil student loans are from an official high school class. I realize that his advice isn't bad most of the time (minus the Jesus stuff), but it's incredibly simple, and it "works" in the same way that most self-help books "work", in that if have no organization/framework for fixing a problem, adding anything will probably be a little helpful. But like self-help books, it's extremely simple and reductive. (to be clear, I'm talking about the time-management "getting things done" self-help books; I place absolutely no credibility to any self help book that claims to have any understanding of "quantum physics").
peter303 5y ago
People can file a suit for just about any reason. Doesnt mean they have any chance of winning.
- vkou 5y ago
  But people can also win a suit despite not having any chance of winning in a court of law. Make it clear to whomever you are suing that it's going to cost them less to settle than win, and they'll settle.
- stevehawk 5y ago
  but if you can't afford to defend yourself then you lose by default. and even if you win then you are out a bunch of cash
jpgvm 5y ago
If you are mixing religion and money it's no longer just money or religion, it's a fucking cult.
williesleg 5y ago
Great! As he should.
godisdad 5y ago
I've heard Dave's show and while his views are extreme and his tone polemical I think his essential message is sound: unmanaged debt will fuck your life up like a car crash. In a fully financialized society like the US where everything has been privatized and put in precarity and people are encouraged to buy colored pencils on layaway on Amazon, hearing someone, _anyone_, say something like this is a valuable dissenting opinion. This has nothing to do with whether he created a toxic environment for his employees though, of course.
welcome_dragon 5y ago
Yeah he's a bully. Source: I worked there. Dave come sue me lol

119 points by sithlord 5y ago

Description of the underlying accusations [1] and response from the company [2]: 1: https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-being-called-a-jerk-for-his-stands-on-sex-and-covid/ https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-... 2: https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-response/ https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-re...

kevinmchugh 5y ago
I read the initial article but missed the petulant response. They intended that stupid response to be read by lots of people, I don't know how they thought it would help them. This in particular: > Yes, you will be in a building where 1000 people hate you, but we will assign security to protect you….that is how cults do it I understand there's jokes in here, but I think the setup is earnest. The part where they invite the author to be in a building with 1000 people who hate him, I don't think that's in jest. They're talking about a Worship Service, and most of their employees, as I understand it, are Christians. I hope they were embarrassed and ashamed to have it claimed that they hate someone.
- welcome_dragon 5y ago
  Not most, all employees are "Christan". You have to be. No way could you get hired there otherwise.
schemescape 5y ago
Not sure former employees are the ones making Dave look bad: > “We have people calling in, they are wanting to cancel stuff for a live event in May — let me tell you how much of your money I am going to give you back if you don’t come for the coronavirus in May,” he said. “ZERO. I am keeping your money. You are a wuss.”

JustARandomGuy 5y ago

Maybe about 15 years ago, I was driving through Kansas with my dad. Dad was going through the radio channels to find something to listen to, and ended up on the Dave Ramsey show. One call has stuck with me all these years: the caller had recently graduated high school, was working for $12/hour on some low-skill job, and was interested in majoring in a STEM major. The caller had one question: should they save up money to go to college (on their $12/hour job) or take out loans for college? And I don't remember Ramsey's response, but it essentially boiled down to recommending that they save money working their current job, and then go to college. That answer has always struck me as completely bonkers - sure debt can be bad, but this is a case where debt is good: it's going to be much easier paying off college loans with a high paying college-requiring job in STEM than saving up on a low-paying job. Since then I have always regarded Ramsey and anyone who recommends him with disgust. Totally willing to hear anybody who wants to change my mind, but at least for now I consider these people as charlatans.

foogazi 5y ago
> it's going to be much easier paying off college loans with a high paying college-requiring job in STEM Only works if you graduate with a STEM degree Otherwise there you go stuck with debt
thaumasiotes 5y ago
If you're really in that situation, you should attend community college, which you can easily afford out of your $12 / hour wages. In the more likely case that you sort of feel like you might give it a shot, Dave Ramsey's advice looks even better: dropping out will only waste money you already had if you were paying out of your savings. It will waste a lot more than that otherwise.
- warent 5y ago
  > If you're really in that situation, you should attend community college ... dropping out will only waste money In what situation? The way your post reads comes across as vaguely resentful of people who aren't upper class. Most high school graduates cannot afford university out of pocket. That doesn't mean that they need to lower their bar or that they're somehow at a higher risk of dropping out. Your comment is coming completely out of left field.

joombaga 5y ago

I interviewed for a position there. Dropped out when I found out they require their employees to go through their financial management course, which is "faith-based".

sp332 5y ago
Being "faith-based" is more of a marketing gimmick. The advice just has random Bible verses stuck into it. It's a way to convince churches to offer the courses with an endorsement. Which is kinda icky, but different icky.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  Yes... it's become quite the irritation to me. Crown isn't an awful lot better. They're both straight up secular financial wisdom with "verses sprinkled on top for seasoning." Believe the Bible or not, one can (probably) reasonably enough assume that if you try to do something based on Biblical financial wisdom, it should end up at least somewhat at odds with what looks ideal for wealth accumulation in our modern, capitalist, credit-based financial systems. My major problem with Ramsey is that his whole motivation for people to get out of debt is just so they can consume more later - "Live like nobody else, so later you can live like nobody else." Luxury cars, big house, and all the trappings. It's woven throughout his material, and while I won't argue that it's not an appealing thing to offer as a reason to get your financial house in order, I'm far from convinced it's remotely Biblical. Also, while it's a minor point, given the prevalence of credit card theft/fraud/etc (which I've dealt with... oh, far more often than is reasonable, every year or two I get a card re-issued, to the point that I have certain cards I just use for recurring payments because I'm so tired of having to update everything), using debit cards for everything is a great annoyance. Having my CC number stolen and someone else's money going missing is far less annoying than having my bank account drained and a check bounce. Yes, I'm not liable either way, but "There's an extra $1000 on Discover that I didn't put there" is their problem first and foremost, not my problem. Crown Financial Ministries is somewhat better, but (having moderated a version of it a few years back), it's still "secular financial wisdom with a few more verses sprinkled on top." Just a bit less materialistic than Ramsey (which, alone, is reason to prefer it). I've yet to find a course that actually starts with the Bible. A long form study, starting with going through the (many and verbose) chunks of the Bible that talk about wealth, money, resources, etc, and then work from there to what it looks like in the modern world. There's plenty in there about saving for the future and managing resources wisely, but I'm reasonably certain getting from "What the Bible says about money" to "And therefore you should save for a Mercedes!" requires more than a bit of a stretch. Ramsey is fairly good at the "You are in deep financial trouble, get your stuff together!" initial motivation, and I certainly won't argue that his methods don't work for a lot of people - at least to the "Get your high interest revolving debt paid down, get an emergency fund, and stop buying trivial stupid crap" level, but I really don't agree with his longer term methods (which tend to look an awful lot like "Buy Dave Ramsey branded mutual funds," which are fairly crap funds, last I looked - but he gets a kickback). If you know of anything better, I'm certainly interested in what's out there. But the state of "Biblically based financial wisdom" in the US, at least, is pretty well lacking from what I can see.

headcanon 5y ago

For context, Dave Ramsey is a popular radio/internet personality that gives financial advice and presumably helps people get out of debt. I've seen him pop up on my feed occasionally but never paid him much attention. Sounds like that was for the best. I found a video that elaborates on some of the abuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXKsDjACZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXKsDjACZA

redis_mlc 5y ago
I've watched a few episodes on Youtube. For sophisticated people: 1) his advice is not for you 2) he is a bible-thumper, so most of his advice doesn't apply after 1970 (post-modernism). His tune would change after a divorce. 3) He says school debt should be shared, which is even worse than paying for foodie calls. Legally, school debt in the US remains with the borrower and is not shared in divorce settlements, so there's no good reason to pay for somebody else's school debt. For people with no financial knowledge: 1) Dave is better than nothing. Personally I find watching his shows useful to understand societal financial illiteracy at large, rather than for anything Dave says. I once dated somebody who was innumerate (couldn't understand numbers or budgets.) That's a level of financial illiteracy you don't want in your life, trust me, since they can make a financial blunder at any time that will end your relationship: "Hey, I bought (got a loan) a new car yesterday. Can you just pay for the expenses?"
peter303 5y ago
DR has two points: 1) Any debt is bad including purchase mortgages and college loans. More sophisticated financial advisers believe some debts are better than others. 2) DR has a multi-step solution for paying off debts. This I believe is practical because it divides a large problem into more manageable pieces.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

tombert 5y ago

I remember I listened to one of Ramsey's radio shows about a decade ago. A caller said that they had about $50,000 of credit card debt, and was asking about the best way to lower that debt. Dave gave a few basic truisms about the "debt snowball", but shockingly he then mentioned that this person should increase the amount of money they're giving to the church, since without Jesus's help you got nothing. I'm not religious, but that always seemed so baffling (and dangerous). Surely a deity would understand you are hurting your long-term giving-to-Jesus potential if you're constantly broke. That led me to research him a bit, and this guy is a borderline cult-leader, and it's a bit upsetting that he'll be worth more than I ever will be.

Qub3d 5y ago
In high school I breathed the "gospel" of Dave Ramsey. I was essentially a religiously-bent FIRE [0] advocate. What I have come to realize is that Dave is like an AA leader. His advice makes a lot of sense if you are in a situation where you need to curtail excessive spending, and (benefit of the doubt, I agree with you that the increased tithe is gross) I could see how Dave is trying to help people find a reason to spend less on themselves. Just as I wouldn't tell a recovering alcoholic the goal is to drink moderately, I wouldn't tell a person considering bankruptcy that some debt is good. For people who can control their budgets, though -- Dave's advice may limit your options. Debt when managed right is a great tool for boosting liquidity when you need it. That's why even though Dave (and high school Past-me) would shake their heads at this, I have a small loan for a used car and I have a credit card. [0]: "Financial Independence, Retire Early." Still not a bad idea overall, minus the dogma (see https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/)
- tombert 5y ago
  Did they make you watch Ramsey's videos in high school? He released some idiotic video lecture series for high schools, that we spent almost an entire semester watching. I got to learn about how evil student loans are from an official high school class. I realize that his advice isn't bad most of the time (minus the Jesus stuff), but it's incredibly simple, and it "works" in the same way that most self-help books "work", in that if have no organization/framework for fixing a problem, adding anything will probably be a little helpful. But like self-help books, it's extremely simple and reductive. (to be clear, I'm talking about the time-management "getting things done" self-help books; I place absolutely no credibility to any self help book that claims to have any understanding of "quantum physics").

peter303 5y ago

People can file a suit for just about any reason. Doesnt mean they have any chance of winning.

vkou 5y ago
But people can also win a suit despite not having any chance of winning in a court of law. Make it clear to whomever you are suing that it's going to cost them less to settle than win, and they'll settle.
stevehawk 5y ago
but if you can't afford to defend yourself then you lose by default. and even if you win then you are out a bunch of cash

jpgvm 5y ago

If you are mixing religion and money it's no longer just money or religion, it's a fucking cult.

williesleg 5y ago

Great! As he should.

godisdad 5y ago

I've heard Dave's show and while his views are extreme and his tone polemical I think his essential message is sound: unmanaged debt will fuck your life up like a car crash. In a fully financialized society like the US where everything has been privatized and put in precarity and people are encouraged to buy colored pencils on layaway on Amazon, hearing someone, _anyone_, say something like this is a valuable dissenting opinion. This has nothing to do with whether he created a toxic environment for his employees though, of course.

welcome_dragon 5y ago

Yeah he's a bully. Source: I worked there. Dave come sue me lol