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Quite so! Women, all acting as a single unified force, have never once done anything with a computer ever. And all Hispanics are lazy. And all Irish people dr

Quite so! Women, all acting as a single unified force, have never once done anything with a computer ever. And all Hispanics are lazy. And all Irish people drink. Etc. The trouble with generalizations is that they stop being useful when you're dealing with individual human beings. It's your business if you want to say absurdly wrong-headed, misogynist things but at least sign your real name to them, huh? edit: Ah, the good ol' HN No Girls Allowed Brigade. Good luck, travelers.

BasDirks 15y ago
Parent's comment was in response to a generalization, namely "there is a glass ceiling for women in tech", but I agree that fighting fire with fire isn't the way to go.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
Danilo, technically speaking I am the same camp as the women. In fact I think they are more women in tech holding executive positions than African-Americans, let alone African (which I am). I did not grow up playing with a Commodore 64, all the way up to my first year in university in Dakar (capital of Senegal) I had never heard anyone I knew wanting to become a software engineer. So today I am not going to write or support articles about how we do not have enough black men on the board of leading tech companies.
- ovi256 15y ago
  Well, you see, this is where you are wrong. Playing victim is a mechanism that has certainly won its place in today's struggle for power in the Western civilization. Guaranteed results! Even better when you have real disadvantage on your side. Some people have made it into careers, entire new markets, and stable revenue streams. White guilt is a studied sociological phenomena for a reason, after all. If you refuse to use it, I salute you.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
temphn 15y ago
And the thought police come out. Tell me again who has power here: the people writing the headlines for the New Yorker? Or the poor HN engineer being forced yet again to don the sackcloth and ashes for having a Y chromosome? Women in general are statistically less interested in math, science, or computers. They are also less violent and tragically underrepresented in prisons, low-wage jobs, and the combat arms of the military. When women agitate to sign up for Selective Service and the great and the good militate to push more women into garbage disposal, gravedigging, and septic tank repair, that's when you'll know they're serious about equality.
sp332 15y ago
I'm not sure if you actually read the article or even GP's comment, because you're not addressing their point. In the article, Sanders says "The men were banging down the door for new assignments, promotions, the next thing to do, the next thing that stretches them. And the women—not all, most—you talked them into it. ‘Don’t you want to do this?’ " It's an observation, not an "absurdly wrong-headed, misogynist thing". Edit: and Michael Arrington said "Every damn time we have a conference we fret over how we can find women to fill speaking slots. We ask our friends and contacts for suggestions. We beg women to come and speak. . . . And you know what? A lot of the time they say no. Because they are literally hounded to speak at every single tech event in the world because they are all trying so hard to find qualified women to speak at their conference."
- WalterBright 15y ago
  To be fair, the men who give good presentations are also booked solid.
invalidOrTaken 15y ago
But that's exactly what miffs most HN readers, I think---that calls for "more women in tech" are generalizations. It's not "Marissa Meyer should be CEO, not Larry," it's "more women in leadership in tech." This sentiment is in turn often justified by anecdotes. Marissa Meyer can almost certainly code circles around me. Most people here have read Jean Hsu's submissions/comments and know that she knows what she's talking about. So what? It's still true that CS enrollment is 80/20 M/F. I hold an extremely high opinion of most HN readers. I have never before in my life talked with so many people who intimidate me through raw intelligence alone. I find it very hard to believe that there's some secret sexist agenda upon which they've all agreed. Rather, I think HN has an extremely low tolerance for bullshit, and a hacker's typical hyper-focus on competence. The hacker ethic is pretty egalitarian; it basically boils down to "If you know your stuff, you can hang with us." Peter Deutsch was 12 when he was messing around in the MIT lab, and no one minded---except the pointy-headed academics, which is typical. So to say in the midst of a hackers' forum that we ought to judge on something other than technical merit...well, what do you expect? Startups don't need women---women are ditzy, appearance-focused, and scared of risk. Startups don't need men either---men are prone to irrational risky behavior, overconfident, and inconsiderate. Startups need engineers, and they are rare enough in both genders that they'll take them if they're blind, half-man half-woman, triple-lesbian, WHATEVER. There are social issues (particularly in beginning CS classes, IMO) that can be addressed, but the issue is generally not male discrimination in the Valley, and that's what the article implies. That's what stirs the reaction here. And stop your straw-man labeling. It brings down the level of discussion.

BasDirks 15y ago

Parent's comment was in response to a generalization, namely "there is a glass ceiling for women in tech", but I agree that fighting fire with fire isn't the way to go.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

Danilo, technically speaking I am the same camp as the women. In fact I think they are more women in tech holding executive positions than African-Americans, let alone African (which I am). I did not grow up playing with a Commodore 64, all the way up to my first year in university in Dakar (capital of Senegal) I had never heard anyone I knew wanting to become a software engineer. So today I am not going to write or support articles about how we do not have enough black men on the board of leading tech companies.

ovi256 15y ago
Well, you see, this is where you are wrong. Playing victim is a mechanism that has certainly won its place in today's struggle for power in the Western civilization. Guaranteed results! Even better when you have real disadvantage on your side. Some people have made it into careers, entire new markets, and stable revenue streams. White guilt is a studied sociological phenomena for a reason, after all. If you refuse to use it, I salute you.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

temphn 15y ago

And the thought police come out. Tell me again who has power here: the people writing the headlines for the New Yorker? Or the poor HN engineer being forced yet again to don the sackcloth and ashes for having a Y chromosome? Women in general are statistically less interested in math, science, or computers. They are also less violent and tragically underrepresented in prisons, low-wage jobs, and the combat arms of the military. When women agitate to sign up for Selective Service and the great and the good militate to push more women into garbage disposal, gravedigging, and septic tank repair, that's when you'll know they're serious about equality.

sp332 15y ago

I'm not sure if you actually read the article or even GP's comment, because you're not addressing their point. In the article, Sanders says "The men were banging down the door for new assignments, promotions, the next thing to do, the next thing that stretches them. And the women—not all, most—you talked them into it. ‘Don’t you want to do this?’ " It's an observation, not an "absurdly wrong-headed, misogynist thing". Edit: and Michael Arrington said "Every damn time we have a conference we fret over how we can find women to fill speaking slots. We ask our friends and contacts for suggestions. We beg women to come and speak. . . . And you know what? A lot of the time they say no. Because they are literally hounded to speak at every single tech event in the world because they are all trying so hard to find qualified women to speak at their conference."

WalterBright 15y ago
To be fair, the men who give good presentations are also booked solid.

invalidOrTaken 15y ago

But that's exactly what miffs most HN readers, I think---that calls for "more women in tech" are generalizations. It's not "Marissa Meyer should be CEO, not Larry," it's "more women in leadership in tech." This sentiment is in turn often justified by anecdotes. Marissa Meyer can almost certainly code circles around me. Most people here have read Jean Hsu's submissions/comments and know that she knows what she's talking about. So what? It's still true that CS enrollment is 80/20 M/F. I hold an extremely high opinion of most HN readers. I have never before in my life talked with so many people who intimidate me through raw intelligence alone. I find it very hard to believe that there's some secret sexist agenda upon which they've all agreed. Rather, I think HN has an extremely low tolerance for bullshit, and a hacker's typical hyper-focus on competence. The hacker ethic is pretty egalitarian; it basically boils down to "If you know your stuff, you can hang with us." Peter Deutsch was 12 when he was messing around in the MIT lab, and no one minded---except the pointy-headed academics, which is typical. So to say in the midst of a hackers' forum that we ought to judge on something other than technical merit...well, what do you expect? Startups don't need women---women are ditzy, appearance-focused, and scared of risk. Startups don't need men either---men are prone to irrational risky behavior, overconfident, and inconsiderate. Startups need engineers, and they are rare enough in both genders that they'll take them if they're blind, half-man half-woman, triple-lesbian, WHATEVER. There are social issues (particularly in beginning CS classes, IMO) that can be addressed, but the issue is generally not male discrimination in the Valley, and that's what the article implies. That's what stirs the reaction here. And stop your straw-man labeling. It brings down the level of discussion.