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EU and NATO are too meek to answer this unprecedented act of state terrorism with something stronger than expressing their 'deep concern'. In turn, this will f

EU and NATO are too meek to answer this unprecedented act of state terrorism with something stronger than expressing their 'deep concern'. In turn, this will further embolden putin / lukashenko gang to bigger and more outrageous acts. This gang understands only force. Something like a rocket killing a top government official, or seizure of assets. (I say this as a Russian citizen who was recently detained by the police at an anti-Putin protest)

cmehdy 5y ago
You're right that increasingly often the EU is not making a clear enough stance about what it supposedly believes in, and this isn't about trying to act tough but to show some determination to exist around the ideals of its creation. If this event doesn't lead to something significant, it would once more fail at points 2,3,5, and 6 of its core values[0]. As a EU citizen I'm hoping for the long-term success of the EU but not always very confident in it.. All the best to you, particularly courage and luck in the face of what you have to deal with locally.. [0] https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en
saba2008 5y ago
>rocket killing Worst possible choice. Even without taking international costs, it will be best day for propaganda and thus elite. And perfect feed for ultra-nationalistic movements - so even if manages to produce change in government, it will be second Iran, not second Poland. >seizure of assets Best one. After enough mansions are seized and comfortable retirements destroyed, couple of skulls will get caved by a snuffbox and all the geopolitics garbage will be thrown out of the window. With following power struggle, that might even be second chance to form sane government.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > >rocket killing > Worst possible Reconsider this. This is a 1 man regime, possibly 2-3-4 men regime. Do you want to keep running after gazillions of their bank accounts in Switzerland, and hope they run out of money, or kill the man who holds passwords for, probably, at least half of money for the regime? And look at Norko... There are latest RolceRoyces on streets of Pyongyang.
  - saba2008 5y ago
    >This is a 1 man regime, possibly 2-3-4 men regime. It is gross oversimplification. It's basically political/special service elite (bound with personal loyalty) and thick layer of rent seekers (from oil & gas billionaires to countless bureaucratic sinecures). Even if we assume that all power is indeed in hands of one person, who will gain power once he is killed and current system collapses? Ones who can act fast and are not hindered by too much reflection or morals: junta, blackshirts and organized crime. >run out of money No. Point is making desired behaviour more profitable than current behaviour for regime stakeholders. When risk coming from asset freeze becomes larger than risk from change in government - system will start to transform. >holds passwords That doesn't work that way. It's actually opposite - wealth is often spread among many loyal figureheads, with actual beneficiary holding nothing on his name. >Norko Russian regime is as far from classic totalitarian one as it is from european democracy. Probably even further, as it's basically democracy corrupted to the point of switching to new aggregate state.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > It is gross oversimplification It is not an oversimplification, it is how it is. When even secret police officers have to make a soup of their boots, it is. > When risk coming from asset freeze becomes larger than risk from change in government - system will start to transform. When the system will start to transform, he will get a bayonet in his pooper. > That doesn't work that way. It's actually opposite - wealth is often spread among many loyal figureheads, with actual beneficiary holding nothing on his name. This works this way. All corrupt heads of Ex-Union countries hold personal accounts on a very tight leash. Maybe with few figurehead titleholders, but not how you tell us. Internet banking has made things much simpler for them. > Probably even further, as it's basically democracy corrupted to the point of switching to new aggregate state. It is not a democracy, plainly and simple. If you think you have an "alternative vision," tell us how you will call this: https://gdb.rferl.org/47AAAE02-01C2-46FF-87F6-5607ECF3427C_w408_r0_s.jpg https://gdb.rferl.org/47AAAE02-01C2-46FF-87F6-5607ECF3427C_w... No alternative "visions," and interpretations from high nosed "political scientists" needed. Call things their their names.
arodyginc 5y ago
Be careful with your wording if you still live there, or want to fly over there, lol
altcognito 5y ago
And you can see with open eyes that every top thread in this discussion is redirecting everyones attention to Snowden as if it's an excuse or even a comparable situation. Authoritarians have good propaganda engines. If Democracy is to survive, we have to do better analysis.
john_doesky 5y ago
>rocket killing Yeah, let's start a war. >seizure of assets Sure, let's endorse state-sanctioned robbery.
odiroot 5y ago
The problem with both EU and NATO is that some of the members have no problems being friendly with these regimes/terrorist states. They make good partners in business.

cmehdy 5y ago

You're right that increasingly often the EU is not making a clear enough stance about what it supposedly believes in, and this isn't about trying to act tough but to show some determination to exist around the ideals of its creation. If this event doesn't lead to something significant, it would once more fail at points 2,3,5, and 6 of its core values[0]. As a EU citizen I'm hoping for the long-term success of the EU but not always very confident in it.. All the best to you, particularly courage and luck in the face of what you have to deal with locally.. [0] https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

saba2008 5y ago

>rocket killing Worst possible choice. Even without taking international costs, it will be best day for propaganda and thus elite. And perfect feed for ultra-nationalistic movements - so even if manages to produce change in government, it will be second Iran, not second Poland. >seizure of assets Best one. After enough mansions are seized and comfortable retirements destroyed, couple of skulls will get caved by a snuffbox and all the geopolitics garbage will be thrown out of the window. With following power struggle, that might even be second chance to form sane government.

baybal2 5y ago
> >rocket killing > Worst possible Reconsider this. This is a 1 man regime, possibly 2-3-4 men regime. Do you want to keep running after gazillions of their bank accounts in Switzerland, and hope they run out of money, or kill the man who holds passwords for, probably, at least half of money for the regime? And look at Norko... There are latest RolceRoyces on streets of Pyongyang.
- saba2008 5y ago
  >This is a 1 man regime, possibly 2-3-4 men regime. It is gross oversimplification. It's basically political/special service elite (bound with personal loyalty) and thick layer of rent seekers (from oil & gas billionaires to countless bureaucratic sinecures). Even if we assume that all power is indeed in hands of one person, who will gain power once he is killed and current system collapses? Ones who can act fast and are not hindered by too much reflection or morals: junta, blackshirts and organized crime. >run out of money No. Point is making desired behaviour more profitable than current behaviour for regime stakeholders. When risk coming from asset freeze becomes larger than risk from change in government - system will start to transform. >holds passwords That doesn't work that way. It's actually opposite - wealth is often spread among many loyal figureheads, with actual beneficiary holding nothing on his name. >Norko Russian regime is as far from classic totalitarian one as it is from european democracy. Probably even further, as it's basically democracy corrupted to the point of switching to new aggregate state.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > It is gross oversimplification It is not an oversimplification, it is how it is. When even secret police officers have to make a soup of their boots, it is. > When risk coming from asset freeze becomes larger than risk from change in government - system will start to transform. When the system will start to transform, he will get a bayonet in his pooper. > That doesn't work that way. It's actually opposite - wealth is often spread among many loyal figureheads, with actual beneficiary holding nothing on his name. This works this way. All corrupt heads of Ex-Union countries hold personal accounts on a very tight leash. Maybe with few figurehead titleholders, but not how you tell us. Internet banking has made things much simpler for them. > Probably even further, as it's basically democracy corrupted to the point of switching to new aggregate state. It is not a democracy, plainly and simple. If you think you have an "alternative vision," tell us how you will call this: https://gdb.rferl.org/47AAAE02-01C2-46FF-87F6-5607ECF3427C_w408_r0_s.jpg https://gdb.rferl.org/47AAAE02-01C2-46FF-87F6-5607ECF3427C_w... No alternative "visions," and interpretations from high nosed "political scientists" needed. Call things their their names.

arodyginc 5y ago

Be careful with your wording if you still live there, or want to fly over there, lol

altcognito 5y ago

And you can see with open eyes that every top thread in this discussion is redirecting everyones attention to Snowden as if it's an excuse or even a comparable situation. Authoritarians have good propaganda engines. If Democracy is to survive, we have to do better analysis.

john_doesky 5y ago

>rocket killing Yeah, let's start a war. >seizure of assets Sure, let's endorse state-sanctioned robbery.

odiroot 5y ago

The problem with both EU and NATO is that some of the members have no problems being friendly with these regimes/terrorist states. They make good partners in business.