6 ms·

And for how long would Safari on iOS keep up with new features or not get its performance nuked if for example games started to move into browser apps in major

by doikor 5y ago

And for how long would Safari on iOS keep up with new features or not get its performance nuked if for example games started to move into browser apps in major numbers on iOS. Apple itself said in the trial that games pretty much subsidize all other apps in terms of the money Apple makes out of the App Store. iOS Safari already lags behind in features. Apple would just make it even worse if it started to cost them significant amount of money to have a truly great web browser.

slver 5y ago
Apple lags behind Chrome in some features which curiously directly benefit Google. It's not slow, it's not broken. It's a great mobile browser. So stick to reality and not bunch of made up "what ifs".
- candiddevmike 5y ago
  PWAs and web based push notifications only benefit Google?
  - easton 5y ago
    I don’t know about “only Google”, but Apple feels that web push in its current form doesn’t benefit the user (at least, how most browsers currently implement it where every page can ask you for notification privileges). They could gate the functionality behind PWA install, but right now they don’t.
    - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
      I don't see how this restriction benefits anyone but Apple. What this restriction does is replace an annoyance that doesn't benefit Apple with one that does. Instead of websites asking to send notifications, they are now nagging us to install useless apps that ask to send notifications and clutter our screens. An honest curator would never even allow these apps into their app store. This is purely a business decision on Apple's part, nothing to do with user interests at all.
      - slver 5y ago
        So you're annoyed by a few dozen apps you've installed sending notifications that "clutter your screen", and the solution is to allow the thousands of sites you visit do the same. Okay.
        fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        No, you don't understand. What annoys me is that Apple has created an additional incentive for companies to clutter my screen with useless apps that wouldn't have any reason to be apps if it wasn't for push notifications. These "apps" should never be allowed in the app store. They should be websites that get to ask me exactly once whether I want to receive their notifications. Instead they keep pushing and nagging me to install their apps and Apple's policies are encouraging this behaviour. In some cases, the notifications are useful, but there is no other reason for them to be apps installed on my device.
        slver 5y ago
        Apps do also ask you exactly once if you want notifications. And you don't have to install any apps. Use the sites if it's the same for you.
        frosted-flakes 5y ago
        But they'll nag you forever to install their app if you use the website. Like Reddit's constant stream of dark pattern pop-ups and ads for their app.
        fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        I want some sites to send me notifications just like I want some apps to send me notifications. I don't want websites to turn themselves into otherwise useless apps just to be able to send me notifications.
  - slver 5y ago
    Yes. Google's strategy is simple: 1. The web should be able to control everything (i.e. PWA features not normally found in a browser). 2. Google should control the web (they can index it, track, monetize it, but it has to be on the web). 3. Profit. Do you think Apple users are super excited at the prospect of most apps turning into battery-draining non-native shitty experiences, instead of using the iOS frameworks? No, they're not. And push notifications on iOS work as a service, to avoid battery drain, they all go through Apple on a single connection. This is free for all native apps. It can't be implemented for web apps both for technical reasons and because web apps can't be curated, so it'll just be abused like there's no tomorrow. Have you noticed on the desktop that EVERY SITE asks you for push notifications? This is super annoying and bless your soul if you ever clicked "YES" on any of those. They'll spam you until you die, or eventually ask your nephew to reset your permissions. EVERY single feature not in Safari, has a reason not to be there. And I'm sick of everyone eating up Google's propaganda and becoming their tools in this. I don't mind Google at all, they should fight for their PoV on all this, and they have a right to expand their business. But not at the expense of Apple or Apple's users. F that.
    - SheinhardtWigCo 5y ago
      Why can I play 3D games in every browser except Safari on iOS? What is the technical reason for that? Have you not noticed that EVERY APP asks for push notifications and uses them as a marketing funnel?
    - sciprojguy 5y ago
      Long-time iOS developer here who does not want cross-platform dreck to become the standard. UIKit and SwiftUI are deep frameworks that let you build really great user experiences (if you're willing to put in the work to learn them), and Apple spends a ton of time and money making sure they can work together and build an iOS app that looks and feels like an iOS app, not someone's crappy "web site in a native wrapper" or "several extra layers of abstraction to hide an API and god help you if you need to debug an API problem" approach.
      - slver 5y ago
  - woogley 5y ago
    Well you can't send push notifications without a Firebase account ... https://stackoverflow.com/a/41829063 https://stackoverflow.com/a/41829063
schmorptron 5y ago
Because it's Apple's incentive to offer a good web browser to sell very expensive devices? The same incentive Microsoft has to make Edge and Google has to make Chrome for Android. They do not have a god-given right to make money on every piece of software that happens to run on devices they sell. Besides, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place if other web rendering engines weren't forbidden on ios. Google / Mozilla could have their own browsers that aren't just safari reskins.
moron4hire 5y ago
> Apple itself said in the trial that games pretty much subsidize all other apps in terms of the money Apple makes out of the App Store. How does that work? It's not like Apple spent money to develop the games or the apps. And they are diverting money from the profitable games to the unprofitable apps. So how, exactly, are the games subsidizing the apps?
- Leherenn 5y ago
  I assume it's that for most apps, the hosting/payment processing/... costs outweight the revenues they make from their cut, but not for games.
tasogare 5y ago
I’ve haven’t met any "feature" on desktop Chrome I wish existed on Safari on iOS but don’t and I browse the web few hours a day from mobile. If anything, web browsers are bloated enough already and should remove features or fix the existing ones before adding news things.

by doikor 5y ago

slver 5y ago

Apple lags behind Chrome in some features which curiously directly benefit Google. It's not slow, it's not broken. It's a great mobile browser. So stick to reality and not bunch of made up "what ifs".

candiddevmike 5y ago
PWAs and web based push notifications only benefit Google?
- easton 5y ago
  I don’t know about “only Google”, but Apple feels that web push in its current form doesn’t benefit the user (at least, how most browsers currently implement it where every page can ask you for notification privileges). They could gate the functionality behind PWA install, but right now they don’t.
  - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
    I don't see how this restriction benefits anyone but Apple. What this restriction does is replace an annoyance that doesn't benefit Apple with one that does. Instead of websites asking to send notifications, they are now nagging us to install useless apps that ask to send notifications and clutter our screens. An honest curator would never even allow these apps into their app store. This is purely a business decision on Apple's part, nothing to do with user interests at all.
    - slver 5y ago
      So you're annoyed by a few dozen apps you've installed sending notifications that "clutter your screen", and the solution is to allow the thousands of sites you visit do the same. Okay.
      - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        No, you don't understand. What annoys me is that Apple has created an additional incentive for companies to clutter my screen with useless apps that wouldn't have any reason to be apps if it wasn't for push notifications. These "apps" should never be allowed in the app store. They should be websites that get to ask me exactly once whether I want to receive their notifications. Instead they keep pushing and nagging me to install their apps and Apple's policies are encouraging this behaviour. In some cases, the notifications are useful, but there is no other reason for them to be apps installed on my device.
        slver 5y ago
        Apps do also ask you exactly once if you want notifications. And you don't have to install any apps. Use the sites if it's the same for you.
        frosted-flakes 5y ago
        But they'll nag you forever to install their app if you use the website. Like Reddit's constant stream of dark pattern pop-ups and ads for their app.
        fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        I want some sites to send me notifications just like I want some apps to send me notifications. I don't want websites to turn themselves into otherwise useless apps just to be able to send me notifications.
- slver 5y ago
  Yes. Google's strategy is simple: 1. The web should be able to control everything (i.e. PWA features not normally found in a browser). 2. Google should control the web (they can index it, track, monetize it, but it has to be on the web). 3. Profit. Do you think Apple users are super excited at the prospect of most apps turning into battery-draining non-native shitty experiences, instead of using the iOS frameworks? No, they're not. And push notifications on iOS work as a service, to avoid battery drain, they all go through Apple on a single connection. This is free for all native apps. It can't be implemented for web apps both for technical reasons and because web apps can't be curated, so it'll just be abused like there's no tomorrow. Have you noticed on the desktop that EVERY SITE asks you for push notifications? This is super annoying and bless your soul if you ever clicked "YES" on any of those. They'll spam you until you die, or eventually ask your nephew to reset your permissions. EVERY single feature not in Safari, has a reason not to be there. And I'm sick of everyone eating up Google's propaganda and becoming their tools in this. I don't mind Google at all, they should fight for their PoV on all this, and they have a right to expand their business. But not at the expense of Apple or Apple's users. F that.
  - SheinhardtWigCo 5y ago
    Why can I play 3D games in every browser except Safari on iOS? What is the technical reason for that? Have you not noticed that EVERY APP asks for push notifications and uses them as a marketing funnel?
  - sciprojguy 5y ago
    Long-time iOS developer here who does not want cross-platform dreck to become the standard. UIKit and SwiftUI are deep frameworks that let you build really great user experiences (if you're willing to put in the work to learn them), and Apple spends a ton of time and money making sure they can work together and build an iOS app that looks and feels like an iOS app, not someone's crappy "web site in a native wrapper" or "several extra layers of abstraction to hide an API and god help you if you need to debug an API problem" approach.
    - slver 5y ago
- woogley 5y ago
  Well you can't send push notifications without a Firebase account ... https://stackoverflow.com/a/41829063 https://stackoverflow.com/a/41829063

schmorptron 5y ago

Because it's Apple's incentive to offer a good web browser to sell very expensive devices? The same incentive Microsoft has to make Edge and Google has to make Chrome for Android. They do not have a god-given right to make money on every piece of software that happens to run on devices they sell. Besides, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place if other web rendering engines weren't forbidden on ios. Google / Mozilla could have their own browsers that aren't just safari reskins.

moron4hire 5y ago

> Apple itself said in the trial that games pretty much subsidize all other apps in terms of the money Apple makes out of the App Store. How does that work? It's not like Apple spent money to develop the games or the apps. And they are diverting money from the profitable games to the unprofitable apps. So how, exactly, are the games subsidizing the apps?

Leherenn 5y ago
I assume it's that for most apps, the hosting/payment processing/... costs outweight the revenues they make from their cut, but not for games.

tasogare 5y ago

I’ve haven’t met any "feature" on desktop Chrome I wish existed on Safari on iOS but don’t and I browse the web few hours a day from mobile. If anything, web browsers are bloated enough already and should remove features or fix the existing ones before adding news things.