4 ms·

It's a little unnerving to see a woman who was propped up and sponsored by men and given every advantage (yes, after working hard--like many others) say there i

by Rariel 15y ago

It's a little unnerving to see a woman who was propped up and sponsored by men and given every advantage (yes, after working hard--like many others) say there is no glass ceiling. How would she know when she got to ride in the special elevator to the top? It's easy to say there's nothing wrong when you've never encountered the problems that most other women have.

burgerbrain 15y ago
The only reason she was "propped up" in the first place is because she worked her ass off. I think your comment significantly downplays the extent to which it was her own hard work and good work attitude that got her to where she is now. No amount of "sponsorship by men" would ever get me to where she is, because I lack what she has. The qualities that make her worth "sponsoring" in the first place.
- Rariel 15y ago
  How does my comment significantly downplay "the extent to which it was her own hard work and good work attitude that got her to where she is now?" All I said was that it is unnerving to see somebody who hasn't really had a chance to run in to the glass ceiling say it doesn't exist? She got to side step a lot of the sexism and discrimination other women face because of her sponsorship by powerful respected men. She was sponsored because she was/is exceptional. It doesn't change the fact that she was sponsored and got to side step certain aspects of the more traditional corporate experience many women go through. Sad to hear you think you lack the qualities that make her worth sponsoring but that isn't really relevant to this discussion.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Working hard and hoping you get noticed by the right people is how just about everybody gets ahead, regardless of reproductive organs. She didn't sidestep a thing. To be honest, this really seems like a sort of True Scotsman style argument to me. A woman handily succeeds where the "glass ceiling" theory says she shouldn't, but this is explained away as "her example doesn't count".
    - Rariel 15y ago
      "Working hard and hoping you get noticed by the right people is how just about everybody gets ahead" I'd have to strongly disagree. There are plenty of people in this world (plenty at the top) who were born in to the right position and either worked hard to stay there (+connections/influence) or didn't work hard but still stayed there (connections/influence). Very few people are like Barrack Obama--come from the semi-bottom and are now extremely high up. More common are people like George Bush, Jr. and Al Gore. Both were born in to the right position and stayed there. Also, it's not that her example doesn't count, she's the exception--not the rule. How do we make her the rule is the question. There are many answers/ideas about that.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Anyone who succeeds as she has is an exception... As for being born into it, I consider that to be a form of nepotism and address it in my other posting.
        deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
BasDirks 15y ago
From what I have read here on HN and elsewhere she's just very, very good. "Propped up and sponsored by men"? Could you elaborate? You're seriously downplaying Sheryl's skills and ethics. And "the problems that most other women have"? Don't let my mother hear that BS, she'd say: "who the hell is most other women"? The glass ceiling metaphor is too abstract because it makes an underhanded claim to universality. "A glass ceiling for women in tech" is too vague and doesn't advance the discussion.
- Rariel 15y ago
  Sure I can elaborate on my "[propping] up and sponsored by men" comment although you questioning that makes me feel like you didn't read the article. That was a consistent theme--people asserting that her attitude about women in business/tech/being under represented was a result of her having a lot of advantages (via men propping her up and sponsoring her) that most women don't have. And I don't know your mother but what I said is hardly BS. I'm sure both she and you know who I mean by "most women" I mean women who make up the vast majority of women in our western society. Women who have to choose between giving their all to their career and having children because unlike Sandberg they don't have nannies or a 50/50 relationship where they can expect their husband to co-parent. Women who aren't mentored by the best of the best and don't have parents who are PhD (dropouts) and Ophthalmologists. I'm not discounting anything she's done--she's remarkable and a brilliant person. But for her to act like other women aren't doing what she's doing because they aren't assertive enough or that the problem lies within their reaction to sexism--give me a break. In the article somebody counters her points on that by saying that Sandberg acts as if this is a meritocracy when it's not--that's spot on. As for glass ceiling metaphor, why don't you ask Sandberg what she's referring to. I was just referencing what she said "She opposes all forms of affirmative action for women. “If you don’t believe there is a glass ceiling, there is no need,” she told me." Oh and as for specifics about being propped up and sponsored by men I'd point to things like this "In January of 1991, Summers became the chief economist at the World Bank, and that spring he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant." I don't care how smart or good you are, without certain connections you're not going to get a research associateship at the world bank.
  - 15y ago
astrec 15y ago
Irrespective of sex, you don't get to the c-suites without being sponsored: You need excellent mentors and at minimum one champion. Oh, and a pail of talent and two pails of luck.
- mnutt 15y ago
  Or you could just start your own company and give yourself whatever c-level title you please.

by Rariel 15y ago

burgerbrain 15y ago

The only reason she was "propped up" in the first place is because she worked her ass off. I think your comment significantly downplays the extent to which it was her own hard work and good work attitude that got her to where she is now. No amount of "sponsorship by men" would ever get me to where she is, because I lack what she has. The qualities that make her worth "sponsoring" in the first place.

Rariel 15y ago
How does my comment significantly downplay "the extent to which it was her own hard work and good work attitude that got her to where she is now?" All I said was that it is unnerving to see somebody who hasn't really had a chance to run in to the glass ceiling say it doesn't exist? She got to side step a lot of the sexism and discrimination other women face because of her sponsorship by powerful respected men. She was sponsored because she was/is exceptional. It doesn't change the fact that she was sponsored and got to side step certain aspects of the more traditional corporate experience many women go through. Sad to hear you think you lack the qualities that make her worth sponsoring but that isn't really relevant to this discussion.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Working hard and hoping you get noticed by the right people is how just about everybody gets ahead, regardless of reproductive organs. She didn't sidestep a thing. To be honest, this really seems like a sort of True Scotsman style argument to me. A woman handily succeeds where the "glass ceiling" theory says she shouldn't, but this is explained away as "her example doesn't count".
  - Rariel 15y ago
    "Working hard and hoping you get noticed by the right people is how just about everybody gets ahead" I'd have to strongly disagree. There are plenty of people in this world (plenty at the top) who were born in to the right position and either worked hard to stay there (+connections/influence) or didn't work hard but still stayed there (connections/influence). Very few people are like Barrack Obama--come from the semi-bottom and are now extremely high up. More common are people like George Bush, Jr. and Al Gore. Both were born in to the right position and stayed there. Also, it's not that her example doesn't count, she's the exception--not the rule. How do we make her the rule is the question. There are many answers/ideas about that.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Anyone who succeeds as she has is an exception... As for being born into it, I consider that to be a form of nepotism and address it in my other posting.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]

BasDirks 15y ago

From what I have read here on HN and elsewhere she's just very, very good. "Propped up and sponsored by men"? Could you elaborate? You're seriously downplaying Sheryl's skills and ethics. And "the problems that most other women have"? Don't let my mother hear that BS, she'd say: "who the hell is most other women"? The glass ceiling metaphor is too abstract because it makes an underhanded claim to universality. "A glass ceiling for women in tech" is too vague and doesn't advance the discussion.

Rariel 15y ago
Sure I can elaborate on my "[propping] up and sponsored by men" comment although you questioning that makes me feel like you didn't read the article. That was a consistent theme--people asserting that her attitude about women in business/tech/being under represented was a result of her having a lot of advantages (via men propping her up and sponsoring her) that most women don't have. And I don't know your mother but what I said is hardly BS. I'm sure both she and you know who I mean by "most women" I mean women who make up the vast majority of women in our western society. Women who have to choose between giving their all to their career and having children because unlike Sandberg they don't have nannies or a 50/50 relationship where they can expect their husband to co-parent. Women who aren't mentored by the best of the best and don't have parents who are PhD (dropouts) and Ophthalmologists. I'm not discounting anything she's done--she's remarkable and a brilliant person. But for her to act like other women aren't doing what she's doing because they aren't assertive enough or that the problem lies within their reaction to sexism--give me a break. In the article somebody counters her points on that by saying that Sandberg acts as if this is a meritocracy when it's not--that's spot on. As for glass ceiling metaphor, why don't you ask Sandberg what she's referring to. I was just referencing what she said "She opposes all forms of affirmative action for women. “If you don’t believe there is a glass ceiling, there is no need,” she told me." Oh and as for specifics about being propped up and sponsored by men I'd point to things like this "In January of 1991, Summers became the chief economist at the World Bank, and that spring he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant." I don't care how smart or good you are, without certain connections you're not going to get a research associateship at the world bank.
- 15y ago

astrec 15y ago

Irrespective of sex, you don't get to the c-suites without being sponsored: You need excellent mentors and at minimum one champion. Oh, and a pail of talent and two pails of luck.

mnutt 15y ago
Or you could just start your own company and give yourself whatever c-level title you please.