5 ms·

That would not solve the problem. Greek would still not pay they money back to the French and German banks they took it from. The EU has to get Greece on track

by yaix 15y ago

That would not solve the problem. Greek would still not pay they money back to the French and German banks they took it from. The EU has to get Greece on track, and this is a good moment to do it. Greece has lied (falsified financial data) to get into the euro, and their internal economic system is not sustainable. These will be tough year for Greece but at the end they will be better off.

rdtsc 15y ago
Can their sovereignty be weakened? As in the French and Germans slowly just taking over Greek institutions. (As in since you can't get the taxes yourself, let the Germans run the police and the tax office?). There were snide remarks and suggestions a while back of them selling off islands? That might work. Then I wonder how would the Greeks pay the money back anyway. How much feta-cheese and tourism can they sell? At some point the interest rates are just to high for them to even touch the principle when paying back, even if they start to double their feta cheese production and start actually diligently paying taxes ...
- bartwe 15y ago
  I wouldn't want them to sell their soil to more powerful nations, sounds like a recipe for war.
- wladimir 15y ago
  That sounds like a really, really bad idea. No one likes the idea of Germany or France taking over other European countries. We've been there...
  - yaix 15y ago
    Yes, we have. Germany took over Eastern Germany just 2 decades ago and paid huge amounts of money to get the East to a more or less equal level. The result is that the old communists that had destroyed Eastern Germany, today still get over 30% of the votes by people without memory. Its no use to help people from the outside. People must learn to run their own countries themselves. In the case of Greece, they have to learn to not cheat to get money from Europe (like they did to get into the Euro Zone) and to pay taxes if they want that the government does stuff. Especially the wealthier people in Greece seem to be extremely selfish in that regard.
    - guard-of-terra 15y ago
      As far as I know, Germany did some nasty things while overrunning East Germany: Like, they replaced the staff of East Germany universities with West professors, throwing East professors out. Also, when choosing whether to bankrupt some East factory or refit it, they almost always chose to bankrupt (think Trabant) And concerning "old communists that had destroyed Eastern Germany" - Eastern Germany was, like, the richest communist state. It wasn't politically free, sure, but it was fine economically. Now, why would you expect people "without money" who did have the money (and job, and their life) before reunification, not vote for who they vote for?
      - yaix 15y ago
        "Overrunning". WTF dude? They kicked communists (usually agents of the Stasi, the secret police) out of government jobs, most of those had gotten the job because they were party members. That is hardly "nasty". The other way around would have been nasty. Would you want Gaddhafi's son to keep his military pay after the regime has been overthrown?
        guard-of-terra 15y ago
        If you deprive reasonably successful people of their jobs (and therefore self-respect, identity and lifestyle) - surely they would be bitter and revisionistic. The fact that you-ve tossed them a bone and they aren't starving won't help much. Disgruntling teachers and workers would not get you much popularity. People would vote for anyone who is not responsible for that. You insisting that anyone who suffered was a putrid Stasi agent would certainly make matters worse. If two Koreas one day would unite, this would be their second severe problem after economy.
        guard-of-terra 15y ago
        And by the way I don't understand why you assume I support the invasion of sovereign country that is Libya and installing some puppet government there. Of course I don't.
        15y ago
- dhoe 15y ago
  Re: sovereignity, I still can't believe it, but apparently Euro Group president Jean-Claude Juncker has suggested just that. http://www.independent.ie/business/european/greece-will-pay-for-euro110bn-bailout-with-its-sovereignty-2812141.html http://www.independent.ie/business/european/greece-will-pay-...
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- yaix 15y ago
  Nobody in France or Germany will be remotely interested in "taking over" Greece. Its like saying "hey, I got here a bucked of problems, want them?" Well, no, thanks! The sovereignty of all European countries is "weakened", that's the whole idea of the euro. There is another level of supervision, and that is really good. Not only in Greece, also e.g. Germany constantly gets told from EU institutions or the EU supreme court to change laws and regulations or to watch the deficit, etc. That's a good thing. Of course the politicians don't like it, takes away some of their power. Greece has vast opportunities, if they would get their stuff together. Solar power alone could be a great industry in Greece. There is a plan called "DeserTec", with several large EU corporation planing to install a hundred billion in solar cells in Northern Africa. If Greece was smart, they would jump on that train. But they are not, apparently. Its easier to borrow money and whine on payback time.
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    > Nobody in France or Germany will be remotely interested in "taking over" Greece. Its like saying "hey, I got here a bucked of problems, want them?" Well, no, thanks! Well if they have islands that can be used for military bases, or agricultural lands that French farmers can use and so on. Setting a German company in charge of collecting taxes for example and making a profit. These are all draconian measures that basically are one stop short of invading the country, but I am thinking more if this is what is left as a solution. Lending them more money implies having faith that they will be able to pay it back, if that faith is gone, and they cannot be expected to pay back, the the lenders would probably like to get something else back at least, so have them sell their assets (land, control, power) ?
    - yaix 15y ago
      Half of the farm land in Europe is unused because of over production, dude. And if they wanted to use "Greek islands for farmland" (LOLOLOL) they could just buy it. That's not a matter of sovereignty. "A company in charge of collecting taxes"? Herpderp! This is not the US with private prisons and such stupidities. You are writing a real heap of nonsense here. Lending them more money is giving them a chance to get their stuff on track. Better checks and balances. A greater awareness of civil responsibility of each individual, etc. Basically, the stuff that made Northern Europe (and the US/Canada) economically strong. Look up "Social Capital" if you are interested in development policy.
- Maro 15y ago
  That's what happens when poor gov'ts sell of their telecom, energy, postal, gambling, etc. monopolies to foreign investors.

by yaix 15y ago

rdtsc 15y ago

Can their sovereignty be weakened? As in the French and Germans slowly just taking over Greek institutions. (As in since you can't get the taxes yourself, let the Germans run the police and the tax office?). There were snide remarks and suggestions a while back of them selling off islands? That might work. Then I wonder how would the Greeks pay the money back anyway. How much feta-cheese and tourism can they sell? At some point the interest rates are just to high for them to even touch the principle when paying back, even if they start to double their feta cheese production and start actually diligently paying taxes ...

bartwe 15y ago
I wouldn't want them to sell their soil to more powerful nations, sounds like a recipe for war.
wladimir 15y ago
That sounds like a really, really bad idea. No one likes the idea of Germany or France taking over other European countries. We've been there...
- yaix 15y ago
  Yes, we have. Germany took over Eastern Germany just 2 decades ago and paid huge amounts of money to get the East to a more or less equal level. The result is that the old communists that had destroyed Eastern Germany, today still get over 30% of the votes by people without memory. Its no use to help people from the outside. People must learn to run their own countries themselves. In the case of Greece, they have to learn to not cheat to get money from Europe (like they did to get into the Euro Zone) and to pay taxes if they want that the government does stuff. Especially the wealthier people in Greece seem to be extremely selfish in that regard.
  - guard-of-terra 15y ago
    As far as I know, Germany did some nasty things while overrunning East Germany: Like, they replaced the staff of East Germany universities with West professors, throwing East professors out. Also, when choosing whether to bankrupt some East factory or refit it, they almost always chose to bankrupt (think Trabant) And concerning "old communists that had destroyed Eastern Germany" - Eastern Germany was, like, the richest communist state. It wasn't politically free, sure, but it was fine economically. Now, why would you expect people "without money" who did have the money (and job, and their life) before reunification, not vote for who they vote for?
    - yaix 15y ago
      "Overrunning". WTF dude? They kicked communists (usually agents of the Stasi, the secret police) out of government jobs, most of those had gotten the job because they were party members. That is hardly "nasty". The other way around would have been nasty. Would you want Gaddhafi's son to keep his military pay after the regime has been overthrown?
      - guard-of-terra 15y ago
        If you deprive reasonably successful people of their jobs (and therefore self-respect, identity and lifestyle) - surely they would be bitter and revisionistic. The fact that you-ve tossed them a bone and they aren't starving won't help much. Disgruntling teachers and workers would not get you much popularity. People would vote for anyone who is not responsible for that. You insisting that anyone who suffered was a putrid Stasi agent would certainly make matters worse. If two Koreas one day would unite, this would be their second severe problem after economy.
      - guard-of-terra 15y ago
        And by the way I don't understand why you assume I support the invasion of sovereign country that is Libya and installing some puppet government there. Of course I don't.
        15y ago
dhoe 15y ago
Re: sovereignity, I still can't believe it, but apparently Euro Group president Jean-Claude Juncker has suggested just that. http://www.independent.ie/business/european/greece-will-pay-for-euro110bn-bailout-with-its-sovereignty-2812141.html http://www.independent.ie/business/european/greece-will-pay-...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
yaix 15y ago
Nobody in France or Germany will be remotely interested in "taking over" Greece. Its like saying "hey, I got here a bucked of problems, want them?" Well, no, thanks! The sovereignty of all European countries is "weakened", that's the whole idea of the euro. There is another level of supervision, and that is really good. Not only in Greece, also e.g. Germany constantly gets told from EU institutions or the EU supreme court to change laws and regulations or to watch the deficit, etc. That's a good thing. Of course the politicians don't like it, takes away some of their power. Greece has vast opportunities, if they would get their stuff together. Solar power alone could be a great industry in Greece. There is a plan called "DeserTec", with several large EU corporation planing to install a hundred billion in solar cells in Northern Africa. If Greece was smart, they would jump on that train. But they are not, apparently. Its easier to borrow money and whine on payback time.
- rdtsc 15y ago
  > Nobody in France or Germany will be remotely interested in "taking over" Greece. Its like saying "hey, I got here a bucked of problems, want them?" Well, no, thanks! Well if they have islands that can be used for military bases, or agricultural lands that French farmers can use and so on. Setting a German company in charge of collecting taxes for example and making a profit. These are all draconian measures that basically are one stop short of invading the country, but I am thinking more if this is what is left as a solution. Lending them more money implies having faith that they will be able to pay it back, if that faith is gone, and they cannot be expected to pay back, the the lenders would probably like to get something else back at least, so have them sell their assets (land, control, power) ?
  - yaix 15y ago
    Half of the farm land in Europe is unused because of over production, dude. And if they wanted to use "Greek islands for farmland" (LOLOLOL) they could just buy it. That's not a matter of sovereignty. "A company in charge of collecting taxes"? Herpderp! This is not the US with private prisons and such stupidities. You are writing a real heap of nonsense here. Lending them more money is giving them a chance to get their stuff on track. Better checks and balances. A greater awareness of civil responsibility of each individual, etc. Basically, the stuff that made Northern Europe (and the US/Canada) economically strong. Look up "Social Capital" if you are interested in development policy.
Maro 15y ago
That's what happens when poor gov'ts sell of their telecom, energy, postal, gambling, etc. monopolies to foreign investors.