10 ms·

> If a developer isn't using that infrastructure, they don't owe anything I’ve been following this case and the only thing I can conclude is that their executi

> If a developer isn't using that infrastructure, they don't owe anything I’ve been following this case and the only thing I can conclude is that their executives genuinely believe that Apple is responsible for all commerce that happens on an iPhone. It’s bordering on delusion. Without third party developers the iPhone would be nothing by now.

newsclues 5y ago
Apple doesn’t take a cut of transactions I make in my iPhones browser.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  They do actually get a cut if you pay with Apple Pay.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274 >Are there additional fees to accept Apple Pay? >No. Apple doesn't charge any additional fees.
    - lmz 5y ago
      No additional fees is not incompatible with getting a cut. e.g. they could take some of the card issuer's portion.
    - maxsilver 5y ago
      > Apple doesn't charge any additional fees. They do charge additional fees, just not to customers. Those fees get tacked onto the bank/merchant in the transaction. Apple charges between 0.15% to 0.30% of total transaction, according to Financial Times. https://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/more-apple-pay-details/ https://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/more-apple-pay-details/
- deergomoo 5y ago
  Exactly, which is what makes their argument so flimsy. Sure sometimes apps get promotion and featured by the store but for the vast majority of apps, any downloads they get have about as much to do with Apple as the results of your web searches do.
- SheinhardtWigCo 5y ago
  This is why Apple holds back important APIs from their browser, years after they are available in other browsers: fast 3D graphics, offline storage and compute, push notifications, to name a few.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Yes. To avoid the crappification of mobile, where everything it's a bunch of slow, memory and battery draining Electron apps, doing whatever they want, each with custom UI...
    - ubercow13 5y ago
      How is that not what exists? Aren't many apps based on web technologies, and/or have custom UIs? There's little standardisation even among 'real' native apps.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >How is that not what exists? Aren't many apps based on web technologies, and/or have custom UIs? Yes, but (a) some, as opposed to all which is the dream of the pro web-app camp. (b) forbidding custom JS and web engines helps keep this low (c) even the crappy mobile-webview apps at least have to be wrapped in an app container, be installable and uninstallable the same way, be notarized, use the same payment system with central control, and be tied to the same policies (e.g. regarding privacy, notifications, use of apis) as native mobile apps
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      Definitely that and not to avoid the potential for circumventing their lock-in. If Apple were that obsessed with performance, their LLVM backends wouldn't be closed source.
  - criddell 5y ago
    I might buy into that theory if they didn't have Apple Pay in the browser.
- doikor 5y ago
  And for how long would Safari on iOS keep up with new features or not get its performance nuked if for example games started to move into browser apps in major numbers on iOS. Apple itself said in the trial that games pretty much subsidize all other apps in terms of the money Apple makes out of the App Store. iOS Safari already lags behind in features. Apple would just make it even worse if it started to cost them significant amount of money to have a truly great web browser.
  - slver 5y ago
    Apple lags behind Chrome in some features which curiously directly benefit Google. It's not slow, it's not broken. It's a great mobile browser. So stick to reality and not bunch of made up "what ifs".
    - candiddevmike 5y ago
      PWAs and web based push notifications only benefit Google?
      - easton 5y ago
        I don’t know about “only Google”, but Apple feels that web push in its current form doesn’t benefit the user (at least, how most browsers currently implement it where every page can ask you for notification privileges). They could gate the functionality behind PWA install, but right now they don’t.
        fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        I don't see how this restriction benefits anyone but Apple. What this restriction does is replace an annoyance that doesn't benefit Apple with one that does. Instead of websites asking to send notifications, they are now nagging us to install useless apps that ask to send notifications and clutter our screens. An honest curator would never even allow these apps into their app store. This is purely a business decision on Apple's part, nothing to do with user interests at all.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  For now
duped 5y ago
I don't think they believe that so much they believe they can skim off the top of certain areas of commerce on iOS. If they did it with bank transactions, Apple Pay, Venmo, Robinhood, etc then people would be up in arms.
- dannyw 5y ago
  Divide and conquer. It's gaming and software apps now. It'll be bank transactions and commerce later on. A 1% "Apple Platform Safety Fee" on Robinhood wouldn't surprise me....
  - ben_w 5y ago
    Sounds like you’re complaining about a hypothetical future where they charge less than Visa and MasterCard? https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card-processing-fees-costs-america/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card...
    - blendergeek 5y ago
      No, in this world they will charge on top of Visa and Mastercard.
    - ImprovedSilence 5y ago
      What about funding your robinhood account from your bank and not a card, so neither you nor robinhood pay transaction fees?
      - zrail 5y ago
        Bank rails still cost money on a per transaction basis.
        theptip 5y ago
        ACH costs a few cents per transaction. I’ve never seen a company pass this on to their customers.
dia80 5y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
cblconfederate 5y ago
I m pretty sure their users think so too. It's Apple's store, they are IPhone's apps. Which is fine , effective marketing halo effect and all, but somebody has to think of the developers
an_opabinia 5y ago
> their executives genuinely believe that Apple is responsible for all commerce that happens on an iPhone iPhones concentrate rich users who buy stuff. There’s nothing delusional about this. Likewise, Epic Game Store giving away games they paid huge advances for also makes those games more money than they ever would directly selling on Steam.

newsclues 5y ago

Apple doesn’t take a cut of transactions I make in my iPhones browser.

Hamuko 5y ago
They do actually get a cut if you pay with Apple Pay.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274 >Are there additional fees to accept Apple Pay? >No. Apple doesn't charge any additional fees.
  - lmz 5y ago
    No additional fees is not incompatible with getting a cut. e.g. they could take some of the card issuer's portion.
  - maxsilver 5y ago
    > Apple doesn't charge any additional fees. They do charge additional fees, just not to customers. Those fees get tacked onto the bank/merchant in the transaction. Apple charges between 0.15% to 0.30% of total transaction, according to Financial Times. https://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/more-apple-pay-details/ https://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/more-apple-pay-details/
deergomoo 5y ago
Exactly, which is what makes their argument so flimsy. Sure sometimes apps get promotion and featured by the store but for the vast majority of apps, any downloads they get have about as much to do with Apple as the results of your web searches do.
SheinhardtWigCo 5y ago
This is why Apple holds back important APIs from their browser, years after they are available in other browsers: fast 3D graphics, offline storage and compute, push notifications, to name a few.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Yes. To avoid the crappification of mobile, where everything it's a bunch of slow, memory and battery draining Electron apps, doing whatever they want, each with custom UI...
  - ubercow13 5y ago
    How is that not what exists? Aren't many apps based on web technologies, and/or have custom UIs? There's little standardisation even among 'real' native apps.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >How is that not what exists? Aren't many apps based on web technologies, and/or have custom UIs? Yes, but (a) some, as opposed to all which is the dream of the pro web-app camp. (b) forbidding custom JS and web engines helps keep this low (c) even the crappy mobile-webview apps at least have to be wrapped in an app container, be installable and uninstallable the same way, be notarized, use the same payment system with central control, and be tied to the same policies (e.g. regarding privacy, notifications, use of apis) as native mobile apps
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    Definitely that and not to avoid the potential for circumventing their lock-in. If Apple were that obsessed with performance, their LLVM backends wouldn't be closed source.
- criddell 5y ago
  I might buy into that theory if they didn't have Apple Pay in the browser.
doikor 5y ago
And for how long would Safari on iOS keep up with new features or not get its performance nuked if for example games started to move into browser apps in major numbers on iOS. Apple itself said in the trial that games pretty much subsidize all other apps in terms of the money Apple makes out of the App Store. iOS Safari already lags behind in features. Apple would just make it even worse if it started to cost them significant amount of money to have a truly great web browser.
- slver 5y ago
  Apple lags behind Chrome in some features which curiously directly benefit Google. It's not slow, it's not broken. It's a great mobile browser. So stick to reality and not bunch of made up "what ifs".
  - candiddevmike 5y ago
    PWAs and web based push notifications only benefit Google?
    - easton 5y ago
      I don’t know about “only Google”, but Apple feels that web push in its current form doesn’t benefit the user (at least, how most browsers currently implement it where every page can ask you for notification privileges). They could gate the functionality behind PWA install, but right now they don’t.
      - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
        I don't see how this restriction benefits anyone but Apple. What this restriction does is replace an annoyance that doesn't benefit Apple with one that does. Instead of websites asking to send notifications, they are now nagging us to install useless apps that ask to send notifications and clutter our screens. An honest curator would never even allow these apps into their app store. This is purely a business decision on Apple's part, nothing to do with user interests at all.
cblconfederate 5y ago
For now

duped 5y ago

I don't think they believe that so much they believe they can skim off the top of certain areas of commerce on iOS. If they did it with bank transactions, Apple Pay, Venmo, Robinhood, etc then people would be up in arms.

dannyw 5y ago
Divide and conquer. It's gaming and software apps now. It'll be bank transactions and commerce later on. A 1% "Apple Platform Safety Fee" on Robinhood wouldn't surprise me....
- ben_w 5y ago
  Sounds like you’re complaining about a hypothetical future where they charge less than Visa and MasterCard? https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card-processing-fees-costs-america/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card...
  - blendergeek 5y ago
    No, in this world they will charge on top of Visa and Mastercard.
  - ImprovedSilence 5y ago
    What about funding your robinhood account from your bank and not a card, so neither you nor robinhood pay transaction fees?
    - zrail 5y ago
      Bank rails still cost money on a per transaction basis.
      - theptip 5y ago
        ACH costs a few cents per transaction. I’ve never seen a company pass this on to their customers.

dia80 5y ago

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

cblconfederate 5y ago

I m pretty sure their users think so too. It's Apple's store, they are IPhone's apps. Which is fine , effective marketing halo effect and all, but somebody has to think of the developers

an_opabinia 5y ago

> their executives genuinely believe that Apple is responsible for all commerce that happens on an iPhone iPhones concentrate rich users who buy stuff. There’s nothing delusional about this. Likewise, Epic Game Store giving away games they paid huge advances for also makes those games more money than they ever would directly selling on Steam.