5 ms·

Short of decapping and studying RK808 silicon, there is probably no way to tell with certainty whether this is a hardware bug, or a software bug, in what could

Short of decapping and studying RK808 silicon, there is probably no way to tell with certainty whether this is a hardware bug, or a software bug, in what could easily turn out to be ROM for an internal 8051 core.

toxik 5y ago
If it’s a ROM, it’s arguably hardware - hard as in immutable.
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  Not sure software that can’t be changed turns into hardware!
  - saurik 5y ago
    Yeah, I feel that's at best "firmware", but I would be very confused by "hardware"... watch there be some amazing term like "steadyware" ;P.
    - mjevans 5y ago
      I thought it was... Hardware - Immutable without physical destruction Firmware - Possible, but abnormal, to change (maybe limited times, risky) Software - Easiest to update, often during normal system lifetime Wikipedia's definition disagrees though, since it agrees that ROM is firmware (I agree EPROM is firmware since it can be modified with more extreme measures), but I suggest that is less correct than the categorization I outlined as I would like to include FPGAs, etc.
      - andy_ppp 5y ago
        So computer games delivered on cartridges are hardware? This is clearly ridiculous.
        jimktrains2 5y ago
        Is an asic designed in an hdl like vhdl or verilog not hardware to you?
        vlovich123 5y ago
        HDL is still code and can produce hardware or software. The ASIC is 100% hardware because the logic is embedded directly into physical components. The same logic running on an FPGA is software although conversationally one might talk about it as being closer to hardware.
        Nexxxeh 5y ago
        The cartridges are hardware, the game within is software. Although yes, sometimes. I mean some cartridges like Super FX (Starfox) or SA1 (Super Mario RPG) SNES cartridges include specific hardware accelerators.
        Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        The point GP is making is that the game within the cartridge is immutable. But, I actually think cartridges are a great demonstration of how the hardware-software divide isn't obvious. Byuu used to write about the importance of capturing a cartridge's mapping. The chips in different cartridges are also connected differently, and if you don't capture that information, they game can't be fully recreated. Emulators either have to guess or use a database of known titles.
        mjevans 5y ago
        The cartridge would indeed be Hardware, possibly with some bit of firmware or software storage are for game saves. Technically it might be entirely Firmware if the manufacturers decided to just use a single EEPROM chip for the whole thing, even if during normal operation the software on the chip only ever re-programmed a single page.
    - slver 5y ago
      "soft with crunchy bits here and there" ...ware
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
marcan_42 5y ago
I know auxiliary micros are everywhere these days, but there is very little chance an RTC is implemented this way. RTCs are by design extremely simple, low power CMOS logic since they need to run off of a button cell for a decade. It's just a bunch of counters chained together.
- nousermane 5y ago
  Chip in question is power-management IC, with RTC being just one function of. Others are (programmable) power sequencing and suspend/resume state machine, all accessible via same I2C interface. Here is datasheet: http://rockchip.fr/RK808%20datasheet%20V1.4.pdf http://rockchip.fr/RK808%20datasheet%20V1.4.pdf
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    Yes, and the RTC portion is going to be part of a separate always-on power domain and designed to consume single-digit microamps of power (5uA for this one). It's not going to involve a microcontroller.
    - dTal 5y ago
      But not necessarily the part that, on-demand, converts whatever kind of tick the RTC uses to human-convention dates.
      - marcan_42 5y ago
        That doesn't really make much sense as a design. If they were going to return calendar dates, they'd count in calendar dates. I can't think of a reason why someone would implement something like that, it's just not how these things are designed.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
It most likely is. Built in RTCs need to operate off battery backup without the main processor running. A general purpose support microcontroller would burn more energy than a hardware calendar state machine.

toxik 5y ago

If it’s a ROM, it’s arguably hardware - hard as in immutable.

andy_ppp 5y ago
Not sure software that can’t be changed turns into hardware!
- saurik 5y ago
  Yeah, I feel that's at best "firmware", but I would be very confused by "hardware"... watch there be some amazing term like "steadyware" ;P.
  - mjevans 5y ago
    I thought it was... Hardware - Immutable without physical destruction Firmware - Possible, but abnormal, to change (maybe limited times, risky) Software - Easiest to update, often during normal system lifetime Wikipedia's definition disagrees though, since it agrees that ROM is firmware (I agree EPROM is firmware since it can be modified with more extreme measures), but I suggest that is less correct than the categorization I outlined as I would like to include FPGAs, etc.
    - andy_ppp 5y ago
      So computer games delivered on cartridges are hardware? This is clearly ridiculous.
      - jimktrains2 5y ago
        Is an asic designed in an hdl like vhdl or verilog not hardware to you?
        vlovich123 5y ago
        HDL is still code and can produce hardware or software. The ASIC is 100% hardware because the logic is embedded directly into physical components. The same logic running on an FPGA is software although conversationally one might talk about it as being closer to hardware.
      - Nexxxeh 5y ago
        The cartridges are hardware, the game within is software. Although yes, sometimes. I mean some cartridges like Super FX (Starfox) or SA1 (Super Mario RPG) SNES cartridges include specific hardware accelerators.
        Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        The point GP is making is that the game within the cartridge is immutable. But, I actually think cartridges are a great demonstration of how the hardware-software divide isn't obvious. Byuu used to write about the importance of capturing a cartridge's mapping. The chips in different cartridges are also connected differently, and if you don't capture that information, they game can't be fully recreated. Emulators either have to guess or use a database of known titles.
        mjevans 5y ago
        The cartridge would indeed be Hardware, possibly with some bit of firmware or software storage are for game saves. Technically it might be entirely Firmware if the manufacturers decided to just use a single EEPROM chip for the whole thing, even if during normal operation the software on the chip only ever re-programmed a single page.
  - slver 5y ago
    "soft with crunchy bits here and there" ...ware
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

marcan_42 5y ago

I know auxiliary micros are everywhere these days, but there is very little chance an RTC is implemented this way. RTCs are by design extremely simple, low power CMOS logic since they need to run off of a button cell for a decade. It's just a bunch of counters chained together.

nousermane 5y ago
Chip in question is power-management IC, with RTC being just one function of. Others are (programmable) power sequencing and suspend/resume state machine, all accessible via same I2C interface. Here is datasheet: http://rockchip.fr/RK808%20datasheet%20V1.4.pdf http://rockchip.fr/RK808%20datasheet%20V1.4.pdf
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Yes, and the RTC portion is going to be part of a separate always-on power domain and designed to consume single-digit microamps of power (5uA for this one). It's not going to involve a microcontroller.
  - dTal 5y ago
    But not necessarily the part that, on-demand, converts whatever kind of tick the RTC uses to human-convention dates.
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      That doesn't really make much sense as a design. If they were going to return calendar dates, they'd count in calendar dates. I can't think of a reason why someone would implement something like that, it's just not how these things are designed.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

It most likely is. Built in RTCs need to operate off battery backup without the main processor running. A general purpose support microcontroller would burn more energy than a hardware calendar state machine.