4 ms·

> Solidly left-wing Democrats like Tulsi Gabbard ???

by geofft 5y ago

rayiner 5y ago
Gabbard is to the left of Biden—she supports single payer healthcare, etc. She has a few heterodox takes, such as supporting the Hyde amendment and certain other restrictions. But almost half of Democrat voters support the Hyde, and the majority oppose late term abortions. The fact that anyone would think Gabbard isn’t solidly left wing is a sign of how distorted the media bubble is.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Gabbard is not to Biden's left, and what you're noting is the intrinsic incoherency of the "left-right" divide. Gabbard is an economic populist who makes calculated appeals to the white working class. She's a purer incarnation of what Trump represented in 2016, and nobody felt Trump was to the left of even Hillary Clinton. The brain poisoning here is that Gabbard has been instrumentalized by marginal "right-wing" activists as a cudgel to use against Democrats (I'm not making value judgements, Democrats have their own box of cudgels). What gives away the game is that you only hear spirited defenses of Gabbard from right-libertarians. Gabbard is herself a marginal political figure and the fact that we discuss her at all is itself an indication that something is wrong. I'm relating this because it's interesting, not because I have a powerful stake in how this discussion plays out here. We're not going to solve American politics in an HN thread. I'm just saying: it's way more complicated than you let on, and, while the media bubble is certainly very distorted, this isn't a good sign of it.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > noting is the intrinsic incoherency of the "left-right" divide. Gabbard is an economic populist who makes calculated appeals to the white working class. She's a purer incarnation of what Trump represented in 2016, and nobody felt Trump was to the left of even Hillary Clinton. Trump didn’t support universal healthcare, have an F rating from the NRA, etc. > What gives away the game is that you only hear spirited defenses of Gabbard from right-libertarians. Gabbard is herself a marginal political figure and the fact that we discuss her at all is itself an indication that something is wrong. I don’t know anything about “right libertarians.” I was curious about Gabbard because she was the only one besides Klobuchar who sounded like she wasn’t reading from some memo everyone got. I also have no idea why the Democratic Party functionaries hate her so much. The occasional heterodox take she has, “we shouldn’t be racist against white people” or “maybe safe, legal, and rare was a good position,” are not controversial.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      Tulsi Gabbard ran in 2019 in part on rapprochement with the NRA, so that's not a great example. Trump ran against Cruz in 2016 on universal health care, and was attacked relentlessly by the GOP field for it. See what I mean? I think Gabbard is horrible but I'm not interested in selling you on that. Rather, I'd just like to point out that she's a complicated figure, and not a good left-right benchmark.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        > Tulsi Gabbard ran in 2019 in part on rapprochement with the NRA, so that's not a great example. Trump ran against Cruz in 2016 on universal health care, and was attacked relentlessly by the GOP field for it. See what I mean? I really don’t. In the House Kirsten Gillibrand had a 100% rating from the NRA. Gabbard merely said she’d talk to the NRA President, analogizing him to the Syrian dictator! She didn’t sign the assault weapons ban in 2018, which was a smart move if she was running for President. Being a left wing pro-gun Democrat was a thing like five minutes ago. Sanders, Dean, etc. Has the party moved that far left? > I think Gabbard is horrible but I'm not interested in selling you on that. It’s not that I’m not sold, it’s that I don’t even understand the argument.
        tptacek 5y ago
        I think it's not important, especially not on HN, that you understand my dislike of Tulsi Gabbard. Another way to come at this is that Gabbard is loathed by people in every faction of the Democratic coalition; the leftists don't like her, the centrists like me don't like her, the Black voters don't like her, certainly the LGBT activists aren't having anything to do with her. She's a gadfly, she has no constituency, and, as I said upthread, she's obviously used by opponents of the coalition as a cudgel.
        pen2l 5y ago
        I think tptacek's / geofft's point is that using Tulsi as a representation of the far-left is a questionable choice. And I think I agree with him: While the points you raise about NRA ratings are true, the perception on the ground is far from that. She is reviled by most blue outlets and cast as "one of the good ones" from the red ones (searching for "tulsi" on brietbart, nearly all results are painting her in a positive light: https://www.breitbart.com/search/?s=tulsi#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=tulsi&gsc.page=1 https://www.breitbart.com/search/?s=tulsi#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=tu... and conversely on HP, most results are painting her in a negative light: https://www.huffpost.com/news/topic/tulsi-gabbard https://www.huffpost.com/news/topic/tulsi-gabbard ). You know, if you want to have your finger on the pulse of the "real voters" out there (and I'm not being facetious here!), you should visit freerepublic once in a while as well as r/politics, just to see the tenor and positions of folks on opposing sides of political spectrum up-close.

> Solidly left-wing Democrats like Tulsi Gabbard ???

by geofft 5y ago

> Solidly left-wing Democrats like Tulsi Gabbard ???

Gabbard is to the left of Biden—she supports single payer healthcare, etc. She has a few heterodox takes, such as supporting the Hyde amendment and certain other restrictions. But almost half of Democrat voters support the Hyde, and the majority oppose late term abortions. The fact that anyone would think Gabbard isn’t solidly left wing is a sign of how distorted the media bubble is.

tptacek 5y ago
Gabbard is not to Biden's left, and what you're noting is the intrinsic incoherency of the "left-right" divide. Gabbard is an economic populist who makes calculated appeals to the white working class. She's a purer incarnation of what Trump represented in 2016, and nobody felt Trump was to the left of even Hillary Clinton. The brain poisoning here is that Gabbard has been instrumentalized by marginal "right-wing" activists as a cudgel to use against Democrats (I'm not making value judgements, Democrats have their own box of cudgels). What gives away the game is that you only hear spirited defenses of Gabbard from right-libertarians. Gabbard is herself a marginal political figure and the fact that we discuss her at all is itself an indication that something is wrong. I'm relating this because it's interesting, not because I have a powerful stake in how this discussion plays out here. We're not going to solve American politics in an HN thread. I'm just saying: it's way more complicated than you let on, and, while the media bubble is certainly very distorted, this isn't a good sign of it.
- rayiner 5y ago
  > noting is the intrinsic incoherency of the "left-right" divide. Gabbard is an economic populist who makes calculated appeals to the white working class. She's a purer incarnation of what Trump represented in 2016, and nobody felt Trump was to the left of even Hillary Clinton. Trump didn’t support universal healthcare, have an F rating from the NRA, etc. > What gives away the game is that you only hear spirited defenses of Gabbard from right-libertarians. Gabbard is herself a marginal political figure and the fact that we discuss her at all is itself an indication that something is wrong. I don’t know anything about “right libertarians.” I was curious about Gabbard because she was the only one besides Klobuchar who sounded like she wasn’t reading from some memo everyone got. I also have no idea why the Democratic Party functionaries hate her so much. The occasional heterodox take she has, “we shouldn’t be racist against white people” or “maybe safe, legal, and rare was a good position,” are not controversial.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Tulsi Gabbard ran in 2019 in part on rapprochement with the NRA, so that's not a great example. Trump ran against Cruz in 2016 on universal health care, and was attacked relentlessly by the GOP field for it. See what I mean? I think Gabbard is horrible but I'm not interested in selling you on that. Rather, I'd just like to point out that she's a complicated figure, and not a good left-right benchmark.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      > Tulsi Gabbard ran in 2019 in part on rapprochement with the NRA, so that's not a great example. Trump ran against Cruz in 2016 on universal health care, and was attacked relentlessly by the GOP field for it. See what I mean? I really don’t. In the House Kirsten Gillibrand had a 100% rating from the NRA. Gabbard merely said she’d talk to the NRA President, analogizing him to the Syrian dictator! She didn’t sign the assault weapons ban in 2018, which was a smart move if she was running for President. Being a left wing pro-gun Democrat was a thing like five minutes ago. Sanders, Dean, etc. Has the party moved that far left? > I think Gabbard is horrible but I'm not interested in selling you on that. It’s not that I’m not sold, it’s that I don’t even understand the argument.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        I think it's not important, especially not on HN, that you understand my dislike of Tulsi Gabbard. Another way to come at this is that Gabbard is loathed by people in every faction of the Democratic coalition; the leftists don't like her, the centrists like me don't like her, the Black voters don't like her, certainly the LGBT activists aren't having anything to do with her. She's a gadfly, she has no constituency, and, as I said upthread, she's obviously used by opponents of the coalition as a cudgel.
      - pen2l 5y ago
        I think tptacek's / geofft's point is that using Tulsi as a representation of the far-left is a questionable choice. And I think I agree with him: While the points you raise about NRA ratings are true, the perception on the ground is far from that. She is reviled by most blue outlets and cast as "one of the good ones" from the red ones (searching for "tulsi" on brietbart, nearly all results are painting her in a positive light: https://www.breitbart.com/search/?s=tulsi#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=tulsi&gsc.page=1 https://www.breitbart.com/search/?s=tulsi#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=tu... and conversely on HP, most results are painting her in a negative light: https://www.huffpost.com/news/topic/tulsi-gabbard https://www.huffpost.com/news/topic/tulsi-gabbard ). You know, if you want to have your finger on the pulse of the "real voters" out there (and I'm not being facetious here!), you should visit freerepublic once in a while as well as r/politics, just to see the tenor and positions of folks on opposing sides of political spectrum up-close.