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The people achieving immunity through vaccination are at a huge disadvantage compared to those with natural immunity. As shown in research from the other day, n

The people achieving immunity through vaccination are at a huge disadvantage compared to those with natural immunity. As shown in research from the other day, natural antibodies target several proteins and more of the spike protein than Pfizer immunity does. Additionally, natural immunity stimulates both the innate immune response and killer T cell response. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing ADE among vaccinated individuals - there's a good chance their antibodies will be non neutralizing when challenged with live virus a year from now. Also, it appears governments are motivated to hide information about the vaccine. It's come out the CDC is performing PCR testing for vaccinated individuals with a lower cycle count than for the unvaccinated. There's no reason to trust anything coming out of the CDC with regards to vaccination.

grej 5y ago
I don’t believe this is clear at all. So far, it actually seems the mRNA vaccines as well as the viral vector vaccines greatly attenuate the severity of COVID among those who do catch a variant.
- rgbbtc4life 5y ago
  There is only one study to estimate the effectiveness of the mrna vaccines. It was quite small, and performed only on those who received pristine mrna injections. It's come out that the mass produced vaccine has significant mrna degradation. It's unclear how many people's vaccines were even effective. Additionally you have 9 Yankees players who were fully vaccinated contracting the virus, so its not 95% effective in preventing infection and there's a very real risk of Merek's disease as a result. Furthermore, Pfizer is on record as saying a 3rd dose will be needed. Meanwhile, natural immunity has been shown to be robust and long lasting.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    The Yankees were given the J&J vaccine, not an mRNA vaccine. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/13/sport/yankees-test-positive-covid/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/13/sport/yankees-test-positi... Are you scared? Or intentionally spreading misinformation?
  - truantbuick 5y ago
    AFAIK the only player to have tested positive for COVID in that outbreak is Gleyber Torres (the rest were support staff), who had an actual COVID infection before, which undermines your idea that getting COVID is somehow superior to getting vaccinated. And as already mentioned, the Yankees received the J&J vaccine, which is not an MRNA vaccine.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
rgbbtc4life 5y ago
Naturally the hacker's echo chamber will downvote my wrongthink into oblivion. I hate this community. Proceed to shadowban everyone you disagree with. Bye.
bandyaboot 5y ago
Do you have a link to the research you’re citing from the other day? Also the basis for your implication that there’s a known difference in T cell response for natural immunity vs vaccine immunity?
- rgbbtc4life 5y ago
  Natural antibodies target several proteins: https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-target-many-parts-of-coronavirus-spike-protein/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-ta... Natural immunity robust and long lasting: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immuni... Killer t cell importance: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7
  - bandyaboot 5y ago
    That antibody research doesn’t seem to support your initial assertion of vaccinated individuals being at a huge disadvantage compared to those with natural immunity. Your point about T cell response seems reasonable. A natural T cell response may be able to target internal viral proteins. But backing up a bit, I’m struggling to find the overall “so what”. If a person is worried about getting covid and doesn’t want to be at a “disadvantage” they should...get covid?
  - tzs 5y ago
    Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines cause production of the full COVID spike protein. There is no reason to believe or even suspect that antibodies produced in response to that do not target the same regions of that spike protein that they would if produced in response to spike protein from the actual virus.
t-writescode 5y ago
How does your argument here correspond with the numerous articles discussing how the mRNA vaccines are effective against the numerous variants? There's a big scare every time there's a new variant, followed by another article a couple weeks later about how the vaccine is X > 50% effective against [ new variant ].
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tryonenow 5y ago
The high cycle counts of the PCR tests in the US make all official numbers suspect. Particularly in combination with implicit political pressure against the previous administration, and an overzealous press. The entire system - academic, medical, news and entertainment - is rotten with bias and society collectively is worse off for it, especially with respect to handling this pandemic. It's hard to find a source now but these PCR tests were being run with cycle counts anywhere from 30-40; in this regime you are extremely likely to amplify noise and generate a huge percentage of false positives. The inventor of the PCR tests made similar comments regarding abuse of the PCR process during the HIV/aids pandemic - and wouldn't you know it, Dr. Fauci was involved in [mis]managing that pandemic as well. His self serving publication and premature press release created an ultimately unfounded stigma around HIV positivity. There is simply no reason to trust the guy now, regardless of his overtly warm, anti-trump persona. And now he has repeatedly denied before congress that he was affiliated with funding/conducting gain of function research on bat coronaviruses. But the publications, with authors publicly and directly linked to Fauci and funds he managed, are freely available online. This should be a far bigger story.
standardUser 5y ago
"It's come out the CDC is performing PCR testing for vaccinated individuals with a lower cycle count than for the unvaccinated." Do you have anything to back up this conspiracy theory? I'm also wondering how many of the ~1 million tests per day are being performed by the CDC itself?
- raarts 5y ago
  I think he might refer to this document [1] On your second point, this is a recommendation for all tests, nor just the ones performed by the CDC (do they test themselves?) [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/downloads/Information-for-laboratories-COVID-vaccine-breakthrough-case-investigation.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/downloads/Information-...
lamontcg 5y ago
We would have seen evidence of ADE by now. From convalescent plasma to naturally re-exposed and reinfected to the individuals vaccinated almost a year ago now. And the vaccines target spike because there were concerns about ADE with vaccines against the SARS-CoV-1 nucleocapsid protein, but not spike. Pfizer stimulates both CD4+ and CD8+ T-cells responses: https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/pfizer-reports-strong-t-cell-response-to-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/pfizer-reports-strong-... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.17.20140533v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.17.20140533v... And the stuff in there about IL-4 and IL-5 and "the absence of a potentially deleterious TH2 immune response" is all about "no signs of ADE".

grej 5y ago

I don’t believe this is clear at all. So far, it actually seems the mRNA vaccines as well as the viral vector vaccines greatly attenuate the severity of COVID among those who do catch a variant.

rgbbtc4life 5y ago
There is only one study to estimate the effectiveness of the mrna vaccines. It was quite small, and performed only on those who received pristine mrna injections. It's come out that the mass produced vaccine has significant mrna degradation. It's unclear how many people's vaccines were even effective. Additionally you have 9 Yankees players who were fully vaccinated contracting the virus, so its not 95% effective in preventing infection and there's a very real risk of Merek's disease as a result. Furthermore, Pfizer is on record as saying a 3rd dose will be needed. Meanwhile, natural immunity has been shown to be robust and long lasting.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  The Yankees were given the J&J vaccine, not an mRNA vaccine. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/13/sport/yankees-test-positive-covid/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/13/sport/yankees-test-positi... Are you scared? Or intentionally spreading misinformation?
- truantbuick 5y ago
  AFAIK the only player to have tested positive for COVID in that outbreak is Gleyber Torres (the rest were support staff), who had an actual COVID infection before, which undermines your idea that getting COVID is somehow superior to getting vaccinated. And as already mentioned, the Yankees received the J&J vaccine, which is not an MRNA vaccine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

rgbbtc4life 5y ago

Naturally the hacker's echo chamber will downvote my wrongthink into oblivion. I hate this community. Proceed to shadowban everyone you disagree with. Bye.

bandyaboot 5y ago

Do you have a link to the research you’re citing from the other day? Also the basis for your implication that there’s a known difference in T cell response for natural immunity vs vaccine immunity?

rgbbtc4life 5y ago
Natural antibodies target several proteins: https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-target-many-parts-of-coronavirus-spike-protein/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-ta... Natural immunity robust and long lasting: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immuni... Killer t cell importance: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7
- bandyaboot 5y ago
  That antibody research doesn’t seem to support your initial assertion of vaccinated individuals being at a huge disadvantage compared to those with natural immunity. Your point about T cell response seems reasonable. A natural T cell response may be able to target internal viral proteins. But backing up a bit, I’m struggling to find the overall “so what”. If a person is worried about getting covid and doesn’t want to be at a “disadvantage” they should...get covid?
- tzs 5y ago
  Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines cause production of the full COVID spike protein. There is no reason to believe or even suspect that antibodies produced in response to that do not target the same regions of that spike protein that they would if produced in response to spike protein from the actual virus.

t-writescode 5y ago

How does your argument here correspond with the numerous articles discussing how the mRNA vaccines are effective against the numerous variants? There's a big scare every time there's a new variant, followed by another article a couple weeks later about how the vaccine is X > 50% effective against [ new variant ].

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tryonenow 5y ago

The high cycle counts of the PCR tests in the US make all official numbers suspect. Particularly in combination with implicit political pressure against the previous administration, and an overzealous press. The entire system - academic, medical, news and entertainment - is rotten with bias and society collectively is worse off for it, especially with respect to handling this pandemic. It's hard to find a source now but these PCR tests were being run with cycle counts anywhere from 30-40; in this regime you are extremely likely to amplify noise and generate a huge percentage of false positives. The inventor of the PCR tests made similar comments regarding abuse of the PCR process during the HIV/aids pandemic - and wouldn't you know it, Dr. Fauci was involved in [mis]managing that pandemic as well. His self serving publication and premature press release created an ultimately unfounded stigma around HIV positivity. There is simply no reason to trust the guy now, regardless of his overtly warm, anti-trump persona. And now he has repeatedly denied before congress that he was affiliated with funding/conducting gain of function research on bat coronaviruses. But the publications, with authors publicly and directly linked to Fauci and funds he managed, are freely available online. This should be a far bigger story.

standardUser 5y ago

"It's come out the CDC is performing PCR testing for vaccinated individuals with a lower cycle count than for the unvaccinated." Do you have anything to back up this conspiracy theory? I'm also wondering how many of the ~1 million tests per day are being performed by the CDC itself?

raarts 5y ago
I think he might refer to this document [1] On your second point, this is a recommendation for all tests, nor just the ones performed by the CDC (do they test themselves?) [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/downloads/Information-for-laboratories-COVID-vaccine-breakthrough-case-investigation.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/downloads/Information-...

lamontcg 5y ago

We would have seen evidence of ADE by now. From convalescent plasma to naturally re-exposed and reinfected to the individuals vaccinated almost a year ago now. And the vaccines target spike because there were concerns about ADE with vaccines against the SARS-CoV-1 nucleocapsid protein, but not spike. Pfizer stimulates both CD4+ and CD8+ T-cells responses: https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/pfizer-reports-strong-t-cell-response-to-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/pfizer-reports-strong-... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.17.20140533v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.17.20140533v... And the stuff in there about IL-4 and IL-5 and "the absence of a potentially deleterious TH2 immune response" is all about "no signs of ADE".