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I have both my father and my uncle who became dirt poor just by making terribly poor life choices so I've got a very different take on this. They had good jobs

I have both my father and my uncle who became dirt poor just by making terribly poor life choices so I've got a very different take on this. They had good jobs but couldn't help screwing it up by: gambling, buying sportcars, overall trying to bite more than they could swallow (houses too big, with monthly mortgage too expensive), etc. In both cases it ended up with foreclosures / lawyers etc. My brother and I are now sending monthly money to our father because of his bad lifechoices. And by poor I mean: living in a rusty, broken, RV hidden behind trees, illegally hooked up to electricity (not paying for it) and dumpster diving to find food for his dogs (because of course he was dirt poor but he had to have dogs and rabbits). I've got friends who have serious issues meeting month's ends yet they buy 5x what I buy online. Every single time I arrive at their home they've got new pointless gadgets bought on Amazon. There are people spending a fortune, compared to what they make, on packs of cigarettes and daily booze. When you don't have enough money you don't have a ghetto dog, you don't buy cheap gadgets on Amazon, you don't drink your daily bottle of vodka/whiskey/packs of beer, you don't smoke a pack a day. You don't take a mortgage on a car from a category you can't afford just to keep up with the Joneses when a smaller car would do. Well, you can... But there are choices and I refuse to accept that there are zero choices. You'll simply never convince me because I've seen it firsthand. Now I don't tell those around me how they should handle their personal finances but I cannot but think about the many poor decisions I see being made. And I'm not saying everybody has lots of room: but there are many poor people out there who are poor simply because of their dumb life choices (like my father).

notacoward 5y ago
I don't think anything you actually said is actually wrong, but it's adjacent to what many rich people do say - that the poor shouldn't have or do anything that just makes them happier until they're not poor. No treats, no recreation, just work at the best-paying job available as many hours as possible and save every penny. And I do have a problem with that. It's a deeply punitive and judgmental attitude, as though being poor is a moral failing that any decent person would seek to resolve as soon as possible. As I said, you didn't quite get there but you kind of brushed against it. These negative attitudes about "bad decisions" are particularly problematic when children are involved. I grew up poor, in large part because my (single) mother made some of those choices. On two separate occasions, a friend begged her to be the managing editor of a very profitable publication, with stock that would have made us actually rich. Both times, and in other cases as well, she declined in favor of running her own "boutique" business which barely paid the rent. As a result, I do know what it's like to be hungry and scared. But if she had made other choices, my brother and I might have grown up to be very different people. Less "street smart" certainly. Also less exposed to true diversity, less empathetic, less appreciative of what we do have, etc. It's entirely likely that we are better off both financially and emotionally because she made those choices instead of rushing to join the middle class as soon as possible. I've met enough other "once poor now rich" people to believe this is not an uncommon pattern. The ones whose parents did make the more socially-acceptable choice don't seem better off materially or emotionally than the ones who had to pull themselves up later. In fact, I see some seriously troublesome patterns there. I've seen people who were insulated from hardship and striving all their lives make their own bad decisions that sent them (and their families if they'd gotten that far) right back down the ladder. I've seen people who grew up in "no fun allowed" homes do worse. Those are bad patterns to encourage. Even as I write my own checks to support my "foolish" parent, I find it's better for my own mental health (and therefore that of my family) to focus on forgiveness and gratitude for what was rather than resentment over what might have been. One lesson that being poor did teach me is that everyone makes some bad choices, and some people are broken by them. Making the world even harsher doesn't seem like the solution.
- Jiro 5y ago
  This sounds like sour grapes to me. If side effects like being exposed to true diversity, being empathetic, etc. are so good for you that they're better than escaping poverty, that means that poverty is something to be applauded. Nobody believes that. Poverty is bad. If you have a chance to escape poverty, and it doesn't have serious, straightforward, downsides like working 12 hours a day, or leaving your family, or killing people, you should take it. If you don't, you've made a poor life choice. >The ones whose parents did make the more socially-acceptable choice don't seem better off materially or emotionally than the ones who had to pull themselves up later. Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to you? If it was good for your mother to stay in poverty so you are more empathetic, shouldn't it be good for you to stay in poverty and not pull yourself up at all, so these great benefits of poverty accrue to your children as well?
  - notacoward 5y ago
    > that means that poverty is something to be applauded If you get to accuse me of sour grapes, I get to point out a strawman. Not only does nobody believe that, but nobody claimed or even implied it either. Bear in mind that there are many levels of poverty, and even at the same level many experiences. I think it's possible that it worked out for me and my brother, but that's neither certain nor generalizable. We were poor but not destitute, and we were poor for reasons that included our mother's commitment to being present for our childhoods. Not everyone has that. Also, being rich doesn't mean being happy or sane either. In my experience the relationship between later-life happiness and early-life circumstance is barely above statistical noise among those who are rich as adults. But that's not the same as recommending that people be poor, because so many (too many) people remain poor and are thus not part of the sample. I think overlooking that is either bad faith or proving the article's (and my) point. Sometimes poor people have priorities other than becoming un-poor as soon as humanly possible, and those priorities remain valid even if rich sophists don't understand or approve.
  - c22 5y ago
    I think wealthy people should marry poor people more often so kids can grow up with the benefits of both types of influence.
allenrb 5y ago
Totally agree with all of this. If you actually have the opportunity to make good money and you still wreck your finances through excessive spending, well, that is on you (barring something like a legit mental illness). Big difference between that and starting off with few skills or opportunities.
- jhayward 5y ago
  > barring something like a legit mental illness What would be an example of a 'non-legit mental illness'?
stephc_int13 5y ago
Most addictions are seen as "poor choices" at face value, but you have to understand that unhappiness is the trigger. They found temporary solace with those poor choices. This is not rational, but the instinctive part of our brain is taking control when we're under threat (unhappiness is a signal) Food addiction is very common in the US, people are not obese because of a lack of exercise or knowledge about the consequences of eating too much, and yet you'll find that happier (usually strongly related to wealth and status) people are less prone to addictions...
BeetleB 5y ago
> When you don't have enough money you don't have a ghetto dog, you don't buy cheap gadgets on Amazon, you don't drink your daily bottle of vodka/whiskey/packs of beer, you don't smoke a pack a day. You don't take a mortgage on a car from a category you can't afford just to keep up with the Joneses when a smaller car would do. Not saying you're wrong, but I think the article is talking about you. > found that people from higher income backgrounds tend to struggle more at certain types of empathy. In particular, it found that people with more money found it increasingly difficult to identify with the emotional or visual point of view of other people. For the record, I mostly agree with you except for the ghetto dog and a pack a day. Edit: I should add that, of course, this isn't a random person but your father and you likely have a lot more information than I have.
getpost 5y ago
In practice, a lot of bad choices aren't truly volitional; they are mainly the result of conditioning. Repeated bad choices reflect a reduced capacity to learn, which is a kind of disability. It's annoying and costly that so many people make these bad choices, but I think we still have the obligation to care for each other. I expect to make at least some bad choices and I may need help. But usually, nobody can help you as much as you can help yourself, so it's a good idea to arrange things so that people can increase their own resourcefulness and help themselves. Be grateful for how lucky you are.
- ativzzz 5y ago
  > In practice, a lot of bad choices aren't truly volitional; they are mainly the result of conditioning. Is more of a "do we really have free will?" debate
c22 5y ago
I know a woman with no teeth who lives in a shed in a friendly neighbor's garden. After her husband skipped the country in the 90's and left her with a sizable pile of terrible credit, highly leveraged "assets", and fraudulent tax returns she was left homeless for a period but eventually managed to find a new fulfilling career as a social worker and worked diligently for almost 20 years before giving up her apartment and "retiring" to the shed in her 60s with debilitating health issues. How can we build a system that punishes people like your father but not people like my neighbor and should we even try? Does our current system try?

notacoward 5y ago

I don't think anything you actually said is actually wrong, but it's adjacent to what many rich people do say - that the poor shouldn't have or do anything that just makes them happier until they're not poor. No treats, no recreation, just work at the best-paying job available as many hours as possible and save every penny. And I do have a problem with that. It's a deeply punitive and judgmental attitude, as though being poor is a moral failing that any decent person would seek to resolve as soon as possible. As I said, you didn't quite get there but you kind of brushed against it. These negative attitudes about "bad decisions" are particularly problematic when children are involved. I grew up poor, in large part because my (single) mother made some of those choices. On two separate occasions, a friend begged her to be the managing editor of a very profitable publication, with stock that would have made us actually rich. Both times, and in other cases as well, she declined in favor of running her own "boutique" business which barely paid the rent. As a result, I do know what it's like to be hungry and scared. But if she had made other choices, my brother and I might have grown up to be very different people. Less "street smart" certainly. Also less exposed to true diversity, less empathetic, less appreciative of what we do have, etc. It's entirely likely that we are better off both financially and emotionally because she made those choices instead of rushing to join the middle class as soon as possible. I've met enough other "once poor now rich" people to believe this is not an uncommon pattern. The ones whose parents did make the more socially-acceptable choice don't seem better off materially or emotionally than the ones who had to pull themselves up later. In fact, I see some seriously troublesome patterns there. I've seen people who were insulated from hardship and striving all their lives make their own bad decisions that sent them (and their families if they'd gotten that far) right back down the ladder. I've seen people who grew up in "no fun allowed" homes do worse. Those are bad patterns to encourage. Even as I write my own checks to support my "foolish" parent, I find it's better for my own mental health (and therefore that of my family) to focus on forgiveness and gratitude for what was rather than resentment over what might have been. One lesson that being poor did teach me is that everyone makes some bad choices, and some people are broken by them. Making the world even harsher doesn't seem like the solution.

Jiro 5y ago
This sounds like sour grapes to me. If side effects like being exposed to true diversity, being empathetic, etc. are so good for you that they're better than escaping poverty, that means that poverty is something to be applauded. Nobody believes that. Poverty is bad. If you have a chance to escape poverty, and it doesn't have serious, straightforward, downsides like working 12 hours a day, or leaving your family, or killing people, you should take it. If you don't, you've made a poor life choice. >The ones whose parents did make the more socially-acceptable choice don't seem better off materially or emotionally than the ones who had to pull themselves up later. Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to you? If it was good for your mother to stay in poverty so you are more empathetic, shouldn't it be good for you to stay in poverty and not pull yourself up at all, so these great benefits of poverty accrue to your children as well?
- notacoward 5y ago
  > that means that poverty is something to be applauded If you get to accuse me of sour grapes, I get to point out a strawman. Not only does nobody believe that, but nobody claimed or even implied it either. Bear in mind that there are many levels of poverty, and even at the same level many experiences. I think it's possible that it worked out for me and my brother, but that's neither certain nor generalizable. We were poor but not destitute, and we were poor for reasons that included our mother's commitment to being present for our childhoods. Not everyone has that. Also, being rich doesn't mean being happy or sane either. In my experience the relationship between later-life happiness and early-life circumstance is barely above statistical noise among those who are rich as adults. But that's not the same as recommending that people be poor, because so many (too many) people remain poor and are thus not part of the sample. I think overlooking that is either bad faith or proving the article's (and my) point. Sometimes poor people have priorities other than becoming un-poor as soon as humanly possible, and those priorities remain valid even if rich sophists don't understand or approve.
- c22 5y ago
  I think wealthy people should marry poor people more often so kids can grow up with the benefits of both types of influence.

allenrb 5y ago

Totally agree with all of this. If you actually have the opportunity to make good money and you still wreck your finances through excessive spending, well, that is on you (barring something like a legit mental illness). Big difference between that and starting off with few skills or opportunities.

jhayward 5y ago
> barring something like a legit mental illness What would be an example of a 'non-legit mental illness'?

stephc_int13 5y ago

Most addictions are seen as "poor choices" at face value, but you have to understand that unhappiness is the trigger. They found temporary solace with those poor choices. This is not rational, but the instinctive part of our brain is taking control when we're under threat (unhappiness is a signal) Food addiction is very common in the US, people are not obese because of a lack of exercise or knowledge about the consequences of eating too much, and yet you'll find that happier (usually strongly related to wealth and status) people are less prone to addictions...

BeetleB 5y ago

> When you don't have enough money you don't have a ghetto dog, you don't buy cheap gadgets on Amazon, you don't drink your daily bottle of vodka/whiskey/packs of beer, you don't smoke a pack a day. You don't take a mortgage on a car from a category you can't afford just to keep up with the Joneses when a smaller car would do. Not saying you're wrong, but I think the article is talking about you. > found that people from higher income backgrounds tend to struggle more at certain types of empathy. In particular, it found that people with more money found it increasingly difficult to identify with the emotional or visual point of view of other people. For the record, I mostly agree with you except for the ghetto dog and a pack a day. Edit: I should add that, of course, this isn't a random person but your father and you likely have a lot more information than I have.

getpost 5y ago

In practice, a lot of bad choices aren't truly volitional; they are mainly the result of conditioning. Repeated bad choices reflect a reduced capacity to learn, which is a kind of disability. It's annoying and costly that so many people make these bad choices, but I think we still have the obligation to care for each other. I expect to make at least some bad choices and I may need help. But usually, nobody can help you as much as you can help yourself, so it's a good idea to arrange things so that people can increase their own resourcefulness and help themselves. Be grateful for how lucky you are.

ativzzz 5y ago
> In practice, a lot of bad choices aren't truly volitional; they are mainly the result of conditioning. Is more of a "do we really have free will?" debate

c22 5y ago

I know a woman with no teeth who lives in a shed in a friendly neighbor's garden. After her husband skipped the country in the 90's and left her with a sizable pile of terrible credit, highly leveraged "assets", and fraudulent tax returns she was left homeless for a period but eventually managed to find a new fulfilling career as a social worker and worked diligently for almost 20 years before giving up her apartment and "retiring" to the shed in her 60s with debilitating health issues. How can we build a system that punishes people like your father but not people like my neighbor and should we even try? Does our current system try?