5 ms·

The solution is to move to an area with cheaper housing. Moving to opportunity is the American way

JKCalhoun 5y ago
Hmmm.... I've been looking at real estate in the midwest — Kansas City, Omaha — and surprised by how much it has skyrocketed there as well. At the same time (as seen on HN recently) they're "giving away" land in small-town Kansas and Nebraska. No jobs. You are responsibly for building the house. Lots of other caveats. I think a real-estate collapse or a sustained wave of affordable housing starts is more likely.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  The government will not allow real estate to stay collapsed. Look what happened after 2008: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=EcTD https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=EcTD
NikolaNovak 5y ago
That worked for early movers at beginning of Covid. In Canada, 12 months later, previously "cheap" provinces have doubled in prices too. Still cheaper than Vancouver or Toronto of course; but given lower income in those areas, and the growing pains they're about to have in catching up their infrastructure etc, it's no longer a straightforward gain anymore.
pjc50 5y ago
Cheaper housing => longer and more expensive commute. Or worse job opportunities. Then people tell you to move where the jobs are. Which has really expensive housing. The free market tends to flatten this stuff out
- baq 5y ago
  The free market caused this situation in the first place.
  - ratsmack 5y ago
    We had a free market in the past, but I would say that today it is a rigged market.
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
      > We had a free market in the past… This is so sweet. Only Mogadishu has a truly free market. Not many takers.
  - throwaway3699 5y ago
    Free market would mean no zoning regulations. Housing is not a free market whatsoever (for a good reason, in some cases).
    - baq 5y ago
      I don't see how that follows. Free market must have rules to be free - market with no rules undergoes self-destruction quite efficiently, just like free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without consequences. Just mention zoning regulations explicitly.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        Tight downzoning took all the unfairness of the existing market for real estate and amplified it hugely. Today, housing market is driven by rentierism, which is pretty much the opposite of "free". I agree 100% that regulations create and drive markets, but the regulations have been put in place to ensure a steady transfer of wealth from those with less to those with land. The downzoning trend that started in the 1970s, driven by the twin forces of 1) racism (not wanting to allow non-whites into white neighborhoods after the civil rights movement tried to allow integration), and 2) Malthusian thinking (keep the population down by letting fewer people live near me), led to a transformation of real estate, making it even worse. They aren't making any more land, as they say. Which is what drives the value of it up so much in certain locations, the locations where people want to be. But by downzoning so that no more people can use the same bits of land, the structures themselves acquire the really insidious property of land that makes it a really bad for for markets.
- nightski 5y ago
  Not in tech. Opportunities are abound. My parents had no assets and were rather poor. Tech has allowed me to live in a cheap area and make an extraordinary income and build up wealth for the first time in my family remotely. I work from home and have never had to commute.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Some people pretend the Midwest doesn't exist. Plenty of jobs and cheap housing. You don't get FAANG salaries, but if you're setting FAANG to be the standard, you are on of the "rich people who have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor". Before the pandemic, someone on a typical engineer salary in the Midwest would afford a 2000 sqft home with a nonworking spouse and a few kids. 2000 sq ft is not big over there.
  - rejectedandsad 5y ago
    For the record there are FAANGs paying their salaries in the Midwest. I could transfer to Detroit or Madison fairly easily.
    - whythre 5y ago
      Those would still be the exception rather than the rule. Not the ‘standard.’
      - rejectedandsad 5y ago
        I’d argue it’s pretty close to the baseline now. I’m considered a below average engineer (by compensation), but being L5 at even the least impressive FANG can provide quite a bit of mobility internally.
        BeetleB 5y ago
        I think what he meant was that getting a FAANG job is the exception. My original comment was with a standard, lower paying non-FAANG job in the Midwest. You don't need to work at a FAANG to afford a 2000+ sq ft house, have 2 cars, and have a bunch of kids and pay for their college.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  >Or worse job opportunities. Then people tell you to move where the jobs are. Which has really expensive housing. This is not entirely true. I live in Baltimore City and there's cheap housing + access to the great tech market between baltimore and dc
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    I understand Baltimore has insanely cheap housing for its size, but I’ve always imagined it as a Detroit like situation, where yeah the housing is often cheap, but not areas you want to live. It may not actually be as bad as I think though.
    - throwaway6734 5y ago
      It's very block by block but there are some ok areas with housing near/under 200k (at least pre-pandemic).
    - c22 5y ago
      Last time I was in Baltimore was probably 15 years ago, but from the terrible street/traffic design to my general feelings of personal safety it was, holistically, the worst city I have ever visited.
      - throwaway6734 5y ago
        what about the street design? >general feelings of personal safety ymmv depending on your level of comfort around lower income black people
        c22 5y ago
        It's been a while so my memories may be incomplete, but I recall coming on instances where traffic would use the same lanes of a stretch of road in both directions controlled by a light (so running a red light would result in a head on collision) which made me feel uncomfortable. I remember other Kafkaesque scenarios also, like encountering a 5 way intersection with 4 one-way roads going into it and a single two way potential exit which was under construction and lead to a truly bizarre detour back out a one-way street. Just in general I got the sense that whoever was in charge of street design was asleep at the wheel. I have no discomfort around black people and have been lower income for most of my life. Most of my safety concerns were around aggressive traffic and sketchy-looking public infrastructure.
quickthrowman 5y ago
House prices have gone up everywhere, your suggestion is uh, silly.

Hmmm.... I've been looking at real estate in the midwest — Kansas City, Omaha — and surprised by how much it has skyrocketed there as well. At the same time (as seen on HN recently) they're "giving away" land in small-town Kansas and Nebraska. No jobs. You are responsibly for building the house. Lots of other caveats. I think a real-estate collapse or a sustained wave of affordable housing starts is more likely.

bradleyjg 5y ago
The government will not allow real estate to stay collapsed. Look what happened after 2008: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=EcTD https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=EcTD

NikolaNovak 5y ago

That worked for early movers at beginning of Covid. In Canada, 12 months later, previously "cheap" provinces have doubled in prices too. Still cheaper than Vancouver or Toronto of course; but given lower income in those areas, and the growing pains they're about to have in catching up their infrastructure etc, it's no longer a straightforward gain anymore.

pjc50 5y ago

Cheaper housing => longer and more expensive commute. Or worse job opportunities. Then people tell you to move where the jobs are. Which has really expensive housing. The free market tends to flatten this stuff out

baq 5y ago
The free market caused this situation in the first place.
- ratsmack 5y ago
  We had a free market in the past, but I would say that today it is a rigged market.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    > We had a free market in the past… This is so sweet. Only Mogadishu has a truly free market. Not many takers.
- throwaway3699 5y ago
  Free market would mean no zoning regulations. Housing is not a free market whatsoever (for a good reason, in some cases).
  - baq 5y ago
    I don't see how that follows. Free market must have rules to be free - market with no rules undergoes self-destruction quite efficiently, just like free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without consequences. Just mention zoning regulations explicitly.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Tight downzoning took all the unfairness of the existing market for real estate and amplified it hugely. Today, housing market is driven by rentierism, which is pretty much the opposite of "free". I agree 100% that regulations create and drive markets, but the regulations have been put in place to ensure a steady transfer of wealth from those with less to those with land. The downzoning trend that started in the 1970s, driven by the twin forces of 1) racism (not wanting to allow non-whites into white neighborhoods after the civil rights movement tried to allow integration), and 2) Malthusian thinking (keep the population down by letting fewer people live near me), led to a transformation of real estate, making it even worse. They aren't making any more land, as they say. Which is what drives the value of it up so much in certain locations, the locations where people want to be. But by downzoning so that no more people can use the same bits of land, the structures themselves acquire the really insidious property of land that makes it a really bad for for markets.
nightski 5y ago
Not in tech. Opportunities are abound. My parents had no assets and were rather poor. Tech has allowed me to live in a cheap area and make an extraordinary income and build up wealth for the first time in my family remotely. I work from home and have never had to commute.
BeetleB 5y ago
Some people pretend the Midwest doesn't exist. Plenty of jobs and cheap housing. You don't get FAANG salaries, but if you're setting FAANG to be the standard, you are on of the "rich people who have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor". Before the pandemic, someone on a typical engineer salary in the Midwest would afford a 2000 sqft home with a nonworking spouse and a few kids. 2000 sq ft is not big over there.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  For the record there are FAANGs paying their salaries in the Midwest. I could transfer to Detroit or Madison fairly easily.
  - whythre 5y ago
    Those would still be the exception rather than the rule. Not the ‘standard.’
    - rejectedandsad 5y ago
      I’d argue it’s pretty close to the baseline now. I’m considered a below average engineer (by compensation), but being L5 at even the least impressive FANG can provide quite a bit of mobility internally.
      - BeetleB 5y ago
        I think what he meant was that getting a FAANG job is the exception. My original comment was with a standard, lower paying non-FAANG job in the Midwest. You don't need to work at a FAANG to afford a 2000+ sq ft house, have 2 cars, and have a bunch of kids and pay for their college.
throwaway6734 5y ago
>Or worse job opportunities. Then people tell you to move where the jobs are. Which has really expensive housing. This is not entirely true. I live in Baltimore City and there's cheap housing + access to the great tech market between baltimore and dc
- the_only_law 5y ago
  I understand Baltimore has insanely cheap housing for its size, but I’ve always imagined it as a Detroit like situation, where yeah the housing is often cheap, but not areas you want to live. It may not actually be as bad as I think though.
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    It's very block by block but there are some ok areas with housing near/under 200k (at least pre-pandemic).
  - c22 5y ago
    Last time I was in Baltimore was probably 15 years ago, but from the terrible street/traffic design to my general feelings of personal safety it was, holistically, the worst city I have ever visited.
    - throwaway6734 5y ago
      what about the street design? >general feelings of personal safety ymmv depending on your level of comfort around lower income black people
      - c22 5y ago
        It's been a while so my memories may be incomplete, but I recall coming on instances where traffic would use the same lanes of a stretch of road in both directions controlled by a light (so running a red light would result in a head on collision) which made me feel uncomfortable. I remember other Kafkaesque scenarios also, like encountering a 5 way intersection with 4 one-way roads going into it and a single two way potential exit which was under construction and lead to a truly bizarre detour back out a one-way street. Just in general I got the sense that whoever was in charge of street design was asleep at the wheel. I have no discomfort around black people and have been lower income for most of my life. Most of my safety concerns were around aggressive traffic and sketchy-looking public infrastructure.

quickthrowman 5y ago

House prices have gone up everywhere, your suggestion is uh, silly.