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The worst part is that your wealthy family member is right. It is well illustrated by a quote from Terry Pratchett > The reason that the rich were so rich, Vi

by GuB-42 5y ago

The worst part is that your wealthy family member is right. It is well illustrated by a quote from Terry Pratchett > The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. > Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. > But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. > This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

moralestapia 5y ago
This is very naive and short-sighted, what percentage of your income go to boots? 1%? Your own example is talking about a ROI of 50USD in years, yeah sure ... that's wealth right there. People spend 90% of their wage on: rent, food and basic services. Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent? Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years? Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay? Come on, man. Of course, planning and spending carefully go a long way, but that metaphor is a joke.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  Of course it is a joke, it is Terry Pratchett after all. But there is a serious problem behind it. For example, with food, if you have enough money you can afford to buy large quantities and take advantage of discounts. For rent, it you have money, deposits won't be a problem, and landlord may be more willing to give you interesting offers. Poor people are at risk of not being able to pay the rent, and landlords have to account for it. You may even buy and not pay the rent. For utilities, if you have money, you can buy more efficient heaters and appliances, better isolation, maybe even solar panels and stuff like that which may be profitable after a few years.
  - medvezhenok 5y ago
    I mentioned higher up in the thread, but this is exactly why we need UBI. UBI gives the poor some leverage to avoid being exploited due to circumstance(s). Yes, we will get some inflation - but I don't see that as bad. A lot of the reason we have very low inflation right now is because the balance is skewed too far in favor of capital over labor (and that is due to being able to offshore - which should be penalized appropriately, imho).
    - ctchocula 5y ago
      I used to think UBI was the solution, but it has a severe risk of creating a permanent underclass. Then I learned about a Federal Job Guarantee where if the private sector chooses not to provide jobs then the Federal govt will step in and become the job provider of last resort with salaries going for a living wage. This is a stronger guarantee than merely a minimum wage, because companies will just cut jobs in a small town; the Job guarantee will ensure that labour won't just be laid off permanently. It also has some nice properties economists like such as being an automatic stabilizer during recessions when companies are loathe to invest in the economy, while during the good times, fewer people will be on the Federal job program.
      - medvezhenok 5y ago
        UBI has the advantage of people being able to re-skill to take advantage of market opportunities (people going back to school for engineering, say), as well as accounting for situations like stay-at-home parents, so I think it has certain advantages over a Federal Jobs guarantee. That said, I don't see why we can't have both (A base level of UBI + a federal jobs guarantee)
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent? Yes, by splitting with someone else, or worst case moving. Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years? Yes again, by cutting and planting it, or at least part of it. Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay? Sometimes, by moving to a lower cost area, or by shedding unnecessary usage and getting cheaper options. Get slow Internet instead of cable TV. Use an older phone on a cheap cell plan instead of the latest flagship on a subsidized plan. Take shorter, colder showers. Turn the lights off.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  The concept that money is required for investments that save money generalizes to nearly everything. Buying groceries in bulk is cheaper, but requires more money at once. Preventative maintenance on your car can be much cheaper than only repairing things once they break. If you own a home in a place that sees snow, insulation and oil/gas heating (as opposed to electrical heating) can save lots amounts of money, but are expensive to get. If you don't have any money right now you are often forced to make decisions that cost you more money later, which sets up a vicious circle.
- mcguire 5y ago
  No, but if you're not poor, you can not live in an expensive urban area within walking distance of your minimum wage jobs. If you are not poor, you can buy 10lbs of potatos and store the excess in a cool, dark cabinet until you eat them rather than buying today's potato at the convenience store on your way home for a 100% markup. If you are not poor, you can renovate and install insulation so that you are not paying to heat or cool the neighborhood. Metaphors can be tricky.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  You really can do all of these things and you don’t have to be very smart. AirBnB exists, for example. There have been people who sleep in trains and rent out their apartment in their absence - it’s not fun, but it does reduce rent. Potatoes can be grown, for example. You can shop around for a place where utilities are included, for example - and many utility companies will give you rebates to do things that lower your bill. None of these are really a path out of poverty though.
teachingassist 5y ago
Being able to repair things as needed also comes into this category. If I can't immediately afford to send something for repair, then I keep using it until it completely wears out, have an ongoing worse experience, and ultimately a larger expense later on.
chasebank 5y ago
I see this everyday at a local bodega. I watched a poor family essentially grocery shop at the corner store. Toilet paper, chips, soda, canned food, etc. Their bill was over $100. I could get 3x the items, at higher quality with a trip to Costco for the same amount of money.
- selectodude 5y ago
  But that first trip to Costco would cost them $160 and they can't go without $60 worth of food for a week in order to save up. Being poor is incredibly expensive.
  - chasebank 5y ago
    Yes, that is the point I was making in reference to the OP.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  Yup - and it makes the fact that there are a lot of wealthy liberals that lionize bodegas for their “authenticity” even more gross.
baq 5y ago
Or, in other words, it’s expensive to be poor.
- kazinator 5y ago
  Right? For instance, you have this scale of value: $800 car < "a damn" << $800 cash An $800 car isn't worth a damn, and a damn is worth a lot less than a wad of cash totaling $800. Yet, being poor is expensive, so the poor person forks out $800 for a car that isn't worth a damn. (Reference to "Being Poor": https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/)
ryanianian 5y ago
“We can’t afford cheap things”
globular-toast 5y ago
To put it another way: low-end goods are consumables, high-end goods are assets. Houses and land have, traditionally, been great equalisers because even the lowest-end house/land is still an asset. Now the poor are unable to buy houses/land again they are forced to be pretty much 100% consumers. That's how you stay poor.
rini17 5y ago
The poor is more likely to have their boots stolen. Curious omission on (defacto police) Cpt.Vimes' part.
PeterisP 5y ago
The same applies for increasing your income - if you can't afford to be without a job for some time, then you'll earn less money since you can't credibly negotiate a pay increase, your situation shows and you'll have to take a lesser offer.

by GuB-42 5y ago

moralestapia 5y ago

This is very naive and short-sighted, what percentage of your income go to boots? 1%? Your own example is talking about a ROI of 50USD in years, yeah sure ... that's wealth right there. People spend 90% of their wage on: rent, food and basic services. Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent? Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years? Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay? Come on, man. Of course, planning and spending carefully go a long way, but that metaphor is a joke.

GuB-42 5y ago
Of course it is a joke, it is Terry Pratchett after all. But there is a serious problem behind it. For example, with food, if you have enough money you can afford to buy large quantities and take advantage of discounts. For rent, it you have money, deposits won't be a problem, and landlord may be more willing to give you interesting offers. Poor people are at risk of not being able to pay the rent, and landlords have to account for it. You may even buy and not pay the rent. For utilities, if you have money, you can buy more efficient heaters and appliances, better isolation, maybe even solar panels and stuff like that which may be profitable after a few years.
- medvezhenok 5y ago
  I mentioned higher up in the thread, but this is exactly why we need UBI. UBI gives the poor some leverage to avoid being exploited due to circumstance(s). Yes, we will get some inflation - but I don't see that as bad. A lot of the reason we have very low inflation right now is because the balance is skewed too far in favor of capital over labor (and that is due to being able to offshore - which should be penalized appropriately, imho).
  - ctchocula 5y ago
    I used to think UBI was the solution, but it has a severe risk of creating a permanent underclass. Then I learned about a Federal Job Guarantee where if the private sector chooses not to provide jobs then the Federal govt will step in and become the job provider of last resort with salaries going for a living wage. This is a stronger guarantee than merely a minimum wage, because companies will just cut jobs in a small town; the Job guarantee will ensure that labour won't just be laid off permanently. It also has some nice properties economists like such as being an automatic stabilizer during recessions when companies are loathe to invest in the economy, while during the good times, fewer people will be on the Federal job program.
    - medvezhenok 5y ago
      UBI has the advantage of people being able to re-skill to take advantage of market opportunities (people going back to school for engineering, say), as well as accounting for situations like stay-at-home parents, so I think it has certain advantages over a Federal Jobs guarantee. That said, I don't see why we can't have both (A base level of UBI + a federal jobs guarantee)
nitrogen 5y ago
Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent? Yes, by splitting with someone else, or worst case moving. Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years? Yes again, by cutting and planting it, or at least part of it. Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay? Sometimes, by moving to a lower cost area, or by shedding unnecessary usage and getting cheaper options. Get slow Internet instead of cable TV. Use an older phone on a cheap cell plan instead of the latest flagship on a subsidized plan. Take shorter, colder showers. Turn the lights off.
wongarsu 5y ago
The concept that money is required for investments that save money generalizes to nearly everything. Buying groceries in bulk is cheaper, but requires more money at once. Preventative maintenance on your car can be much cheaper than only repairing things once they break. If you own a home in a place that sees snow, insulation and oil/gas heating (as opposed to electrical heating) can save lots amounts of money, but are expensive to get. If you don't have any money right now you are often forced to make decisions that cost you more money later, which sets up a vicious circle.
mcguire 5y ago
No, but if you're not poor, you can not live in an expensive urban area within walking distance of your minimum wage jobs. If you are not poor, you can buy 10lbs of potatos and store the excess in a cool, dark cabinet until you eat them rather than buying today's potato at the convenience store on your way home for a 100% markup. If you are not poor, you can renovate and install insulation so that you are not paying to heat or cool the neighborhood. Metaphors can be tricky.
sombremesa 5y ago
You really can do all of these things and you don’t have to be very smart. AirBnB exists, for example. There have been people who sleep in trains and rent out their apartment in their absence - it’s not fun, but it does reduce rent. Potatoes can be grown, for example. You can shop around for a place where utilities are included, for example - and many utility companies will give you rebates to do things that lower your bill. None of these are really a path out of poverty though.

teachingassist 5y ago

Being able to repair things as needed also comes into this category. If I can't immediately afford to send something for repair, then I keep using it until it completely wears out, have an ongoing worse experience, and ultimately a larger expense later on.

chasebank 5y ago

I see this everyday at a local bodega. I watched a poor family essentially grocery shop at the corner store. Toilet paper, chips, soda, canned food, etc. Their bill was over $100. I could get 3x the items, at higher quality with a trip to Costco for the same amount of money.

selectodude 5y ago
But that first trip to Costco would cost them $160 and they can't go without $60 worth of food for a week in order to save up. Being poor is incredibly expensive.
- chasebank 5y ago
  Yes, that is the point I was making in reference to the OP.
rejectedandsad 5y ago
Yup - and it makes the fact that there are a lot of wealthy liberals that lionize bodegas for their “authenticity” even more gross.

baq 5y ago

Or, in other words, it’s expensive to be poor.

kazinator 5y ago
Right? For instance, you have this scale of value: $800 car < "a damn" << $800 cash An $800 car isn't worth a damn, and a damn is worth a lot less than a wad of cash totaling $800. Yet, being poor is expensive, so the poor person forks out $800 for a car that isn't worth a damn. (Reference to "Being Poor": https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/)

ryanianian 5y ago

“We can’t afford cheap things”

globular-toast 5y ago

To put it another way: low-end goods are consumables, high-end goods are assets. Houses and land have, traditionally, been great equalisers because even the lowest-end house/land is still an asset. Now the poor are unable to buy houses/land again they are forced to be pretty much 100% consumers. That's how you stay poor.

rini17 5y ago

The poor is more likely to have their boots stolen. Curious omission on (defacto police) Cpt.Vimes' part.

PeterisP 5y ago

The same applies for increasing your income - if you can't afford to be without a job for some time, then you'll earn less money since you can't credibly negotiate a pay increase, your situation shows and you'll have to take a lesser offer.