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>it is really more of a tantrum than a crisis, since the Greeks know perfectly well they are on the hook for the money they spent on themselves The Greeks didn

>it is really more of a tantrum than a crisis, since the Greeks know perfectly well they are on the hook for the money they spent on themselves The Greeks didn't know the gov was in debt because Goldman Sachs colluded with corrupt government officials to hide the debt[1]. They have ample reason for a "tantrum" against their corrupt government. [1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.... Goldman Sachs has made a good business out of contributing to, and capitalizing on the, collapse of countries by corrupting their officials (Greece, Russia, the US). In my opinion, they should be treated like a dangerous cult (which is how they operate).

yaakov34 15y ago
Come on, have you actually read the article that you quoted? It says that GS helped Greece borrow an additional $1 billion in 2002 by having it assume unrealistic exchange rates. Assuming for the sake of argument that this is completely true, this sum barely passes the threshold of significance in the mismanagement of Greece. The Greeks ran a corrupt, overspending government all by themselves, and they have themselves to blame. Maybe GS evaded half the Greek taxpayers' taxes for them, too?
- danenania 15y ago
  The main problem with your reasoning is the assumption that the government of Greece is a legitimate democratic representative of its people. If ordinary Greeks had significant power in the political process that shapes the course of their lives, perhaps they would share responsibility, but the fact is that all the critical decisions were made and continue to be made by unelected, unaccountable, extremely wealthy elites. Terming an economically oppressed people's outrage a "tantrum" simply reveals your own bias, conscious or otherwise, in favor of the corrupt establishment, along with a distasteful bit of arrogance. This isn't about Greeks taking responsibility for themselves, it's about Greeks challenging the rampant criminality of international banks, multinational corporations, and the governments they control. It's the same challenge that faces people in every nation on this earth, and we won't see a truly free and fair global society until every nation's people have overcome it.
  - Uchikoma 15y ago
    So there was no tax evasion by ordinary greeks? Only by wealthy elites? Not sure about that.
    - danenania 15y ago
      What's the use of paying taxes to a corrupt government that wastes your money and doesn't represent your interests? Tax evasion is symptom of deeper problems in this case, not a root cause.
      - Uchikoma 15y ago
        The government did not waste the money, it gave too much to too many railroad workers, civil servants, teachers that now protest against the government that gave it money it didn't have in the first place. And no, debt is not the root cause of tax evasion, tax evasion results in less money for the government so it borrows more and takes on more dept.
    - lsc 15y ago
      Not saying it doesn't happen, but at least here in the good 'ole USA, it's actually fairly difficult to cheat when you are in 1040EZ territory, at least not without being really, really obvious. On the other hand, once you start getting on the high end of things, you have multiple sources of income, some real-estate, stocks, etc... you have to hire an expert, and even then, it's something of an iffy thing; Even if you are trying to be honest, an audit is to be feared. The tax law is so complex that they usually find errors no matter how hard you try to get it right. So yeah, I think it's fair to to say that tax evasion is a rich man's crime.
  - yaakov34 15y ago
    So the government is not a legitimate democratic representative of its people? I didn't realize the colonels were still around. Give my regards to Papadopoulos. On a more serious note, Greece is a wealthy (by world standards), educated, well-informed society. It is open to the world. It has open press, the internet, freedom of assembly. It has elections, and has replaced several governments when it wanted. It has a sophisticated intellectual class, which is perfectly capable of articulating ideas about social structure to the people. Can you tell me what more, exactly, does Greece need to become responsible for whatever is done on its behalf? What you wrote in another message - "why pay taxes to a government that you feel doesn't represent you" - is the biggest thing that's wrong. You have to pay taxes because it's the law, and the government is the government, until you vote the next one in. If everyone evades taxes until the government does exactly as he wants, nobody will ever pay taxes. Oh, and the Greeks are not "oppressed", economically or otherwise. You'd think they were being forced to toil in salt mines and fed gruel.
dpapathanasiou 15y ago
"The Greeks didn't know the gov was in debt" Actually, it's been public knowledge since 2004 that Greece has been cooking the books: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/04/1431&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/0...

yaakov34 15y ago

Come on, have you actually read the article that you quoted? It says that GS helped Greece borrow an additional $1 billion in 2002 by having it assume unrealistic exchange rates. Assuming for the sake of argument that this is completely true, this sum barely passes the threshold of significance in the mismanagement of Greece. The Greeks ran a corrupt, overspending government all by themselves, and they have themselves to blame. Maybe GS evaded half the Greek taxpayers' taxes for them, too?

danenania 15y ago
The main problem with your reasoning is the assumption that the government of Greece is a legitimate democratic representative of its people. If ordinary Greeks had significant power in the political process that shapes the course of their lives, perhaps they would share responsibility, but the fact is that all the critical decisions were made and continue to be made by unelected, unaccountable, extremely wealthy elites. Terming an economically oppressed people's outrage a "tantrum" simply reveals your own bias, conscious or otherwise, in favor of the corrupt establishment, along with a distasteful bit of arrogance. This isn't about Greeks taking responsibility for themselves, it's about Greeks challenging the rampant criminality of international banks, multinational corporations, and the governments they control. It's the same challenge that faces people in every nation on this earth, and we won't see a truly free and fair global society until every nation's people have overcome it.
- Uchikoma 15y ago
  So there was no tax evasion by ordinary greeks? Only by wealthy elites? Not sure about that.
  - danenania 15y ago
    What's the use of paying taxes to a corrupt government that wastes your money and doesn't represent your interests? Tax evasion is symptom of deeper problems in this case, not a root cause.
    - Uchikoma 15y ago
      The government did not waste the money, it gave too much to too many railroad workers, civil servants, teachers that now protest against the government that gave it money it didn't have in the first place. And no, debt is not the root cause of tax evasion, tax evasion results in less money for the government so it borrows more and takes on more dept.
  - lsc 15y ago
    Not saying it doesn't happen, but at least here in the good 'ole USA, it's actually fairly difficult to cheat when you are in 1040EZ territory, at least not without being really, really obvious. On the other hand, once you start getting on the high end of things, you have multiple sources of income, some real-estate, stocks, etc... you have to hire an expert, and even then, it's something of an iffy thing; Even if you are trying to be honest, an audit is to be feared. The tax law is so complex that they usually find errors no matter how hard you try to get it right. So yeah, I think it's fair to to say that tax evasion is a rich man's crime.
- yaakov34 15y ago
  So the government is not a legitimate democratic representative of its people? I didn't realize the colonels were still around. Give my regards to Papadopoulos. On a more serious note, Greece is a wealthy (by world standards), educated, well-informed society. It is open to the world. It has open press, the internet, freedom of assembly. It has elections, and has replaced several governments when it wanted. It has a sophisticated intellectual class, which is perfectly capable of articulating ideas about social structure to the people. Can you tell me what more, exactly, does Greece need to become responsible for whatever is done on its behalf? What you wrote in another message - "why pay taxes to a government that you feel doesn't represent you" - is the biggest thing that's wrong. You have to pay taxes because it's the law, and the government is the government, until you vote the next one in. If everyone evades taxes until the government does exactly as he wants, nobody will ever pay taxes. Oh, and the Greeks are not "oppressed", economically or otherwise. You'd think they were being forced to toil in salt mines and fed gruel.

dpapathanasiou 15y ago

"The Greeks didn't know the gov was in debt" Actually, it's been public knowledge since 2004 that Greece has been cooking the books: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/04/1431&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/0...