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People who huffily decry "politics" also tend to have political beliefs which they feel are apolitical. Examining and unpacking those beliefs is "political," ho

by gryfft 5y ago

People who huffily decry "politics" also tend to have political beliefs which they feel are apolitical. Examining and unpacking those beliefs is "political," however, so that the net result is "I just don't want my politics questioned or examined, even when it affects other people."

collaborative 5y ago
Believe it or not there are plenty of people who live their lifes outside of politics. They don't vote, they don't have any favorites in the political arena Politics is divisive and agressive. Some people are put off by the easy narratives of good vs bad Only dictatorships have historically wanted to permeate every aspect of life with politics. The USSR used to say "everything is politics". There are plenty of examples... politics needs moderation. I wish that people could vent their passions with football like in the old days. At least everyone knew no one was "really serious" about why their team deserves world domination There is a time and place for politics (not at work). God knows how many times I've had to put on my earphones just to disappear from the latest office brawl about politics
- 988747 5y ago
  Living "outside of politics" means having no self-preservation instinct. Politicians are like gangsters constantly plotting against you, trying to take your money from you, or force you to do things you don't want to do. They can make your life real Hell on Earth. The only chance of stopping them is by protesting loudly and by voting.
  - gryfft 5y ago
    >Living "outside of politics" means having no self-preservation instinct It's also a privilege enjoyed by those who are allowed to think of their normal lives and needs as "nonpolitical". There are people living in the US for whom "I would like not to get murdered for no reason" is a political opinion.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      Of course it's political. Politics is the argument over the distribution of the use of coercive power in society. People should not be murdered by the establishment without consequence, and the fact it happens regularly is an indictment to our culture and society.
- carschno 5y ago
  That is one way to see it, aka a political opinion.
  - throwaway316943 5y ago
    i.e. everything is politics, comrade. Less facetiously: you’re trying to pigeon hole someone into your own belief system. Stop, you’re being a dink.
    - gryfft 5y ago
      Interesting example of identity politics here. "Don't talk about things I don't like or else you're a communist. You don't want to be a communist do you?"
      - throwaway316943 5y ago
        How is this identity politics? I responded to a comment that was essentially saying “all viewpoints are political” in response to a comment that literally said > Only dictatorships have historically wanted to permeate every aspect of life with politics. The USSR used to say "everything is politics". The communist jab was due to them using the same strategy that the USSR used. I’m not sure if they were doing that intentionally or unknowingly out of habit or ideology, in either case they were being obtuse.
        wpietri 5y ago
        I think you grossly mischaracterize the comment you were responding to. And yes, invoking communism is very much an identity politics signifier in this discussion. One side of this debate is endlessly calling everything they don't like "communism" and "(cultural) Marxism". Which is pretty bonkers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th...
        throwaway316943 5y ago
- wpietri 5y ago
  > Believe it or not there are plenty of people who live their lifes outside of politics. Nobody lives their life outside of politics. At best, they ignore partisan politics. But they can only do that because the political status quo is one that favors them and the people they care about. I agree that an "office brawl about politics" is bad. But that's because brawls are bad, not because you can somehow have an office untouched by politics. Take the very simplest example: how many hours do you work a week? That number is determined by a political process. It always has been. When it was set purely by the rich people who owned businesses, 80 to 100 hours work weeks were common. Workers pushed back over decades; eventually we ended up with things like a 40-hour work week and overtime pay. Due to politics, that number has been rising in the US, with legal protections for workers decaying. Meanwhile, some people with more political and economic power have been pushing for shorter weeks. There's a long history to this, and it's all political: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/03/how-the-8-hour-workday-changed-how-americans-work.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/03/how-the-8-hour-workday-chang...
  - collaborative 5y ago
    You can still do politics before and after work at your workplace entrance. You can even stage a walk-out where you demonstrate outside the office/factory/etc. But loudly spraying your opinion into your workmates ears who have no choice to be there is a form of torture. If there happen to be opposing loud "enlightened" people it will be a brawl. Although sometimes it's so one sided that the office can turn into a sort of one-party state. Politics is best kept out of the actual workplace
    - wpietri 5y ago
      If your only understanding of how politics can function in a workplace is "loudly spraying your opinion into your workmates ears who have no choice to be there" then that's your problem right there. Note also that your insistence that no "politics" happen in the workplace is political. So you can either hold true to your views and stop mentioning it or give it up and instead advocate for some more reasonable change.
- ghusbands 5y ago
  You're talking about partisan politics; most here are talking about the more general meaning of "the actions or activities concerned with achieving and using power in a country or society". So talking about workplace racism is political, but it's not about political parties.
yanderekko 5y ago
Yes, I indeed just don't want my politics questioned or examined, even when my critic has a questionable narrative of how it affects other people. I see how this is commonly leveraged as a superficial excuse to evangelize reluctant parties. "Silence is violence." I don't want to be subjected to company-sponsored political struggle sessions, nor do I want to subject others to company-sponsored political struggle sessions. Yes, this can superficially be construed of as a political belief. If you want to find some other mutually-agreeable term for the idea that one's workplace should not be dominated by partisan evangelizing, then I'm open to suggestions.
- gryfft 5y ago
  >company-sponsored political struggle sessions This is a strawman. I was not advocating company-sponsored political struggle sessions. Does a company-sponsored presentation discouraging unionization count as a "political struggle session?" I have been subjected to that before, and the company would not describe that as political -- no, they're just protecting their investments. For the employees whose lives the question of unionizing actually impacts, unionization is a furiously political question. I wasn't saying we need more corporate presentations about LGBTQA+ pride or BLM. But minorities exist, they're people, and their normal lives will often be "political" to those who are able and willing to ignore the problems those minorities face. "NO POLITICS PLEASE!" will silence those whose ideas are considered "political" while implicitly endorsing ideas that have been promoted to "apolitical." Here's a quote from an Innuendo Studios video[1] which has some relevance here: >The adage about bros on the internet is “‘political’ means anything I disagree with,” but it’d be more accurate to say, here, “‘political’ means anything on which the community disagrees.” For instance, “Nazis are bad” is an apolitical statement because everyone in the community agrees. It’s common sense, and therefore neutral. But, paradoxically, “Nazis are good” is also apolitical; because “Nazis are bad” is the consensus, “Nazis are good” must be just an edgy joke, and, even if not, the community already believes the opposite, so the statement is harmless. Tolerable. However, “feminism is good” is a political statement, because the community hasn’t reached consensus. It is debatable, and therefore political, and you should stop talking about it. And making political arguments, no matter how rational, is having an agenda, and having an agenda is ruining the community. [1] https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g

by gryfft 5y ago

collaborative 5y ago

Believe it or not there are plenty of people who live their lifes outside of politics. They don't vote, they don't have any favorites in the political arena Politics is divisive and agressive. Some people are put off by the easy narratives of good vs bad Only dictatorships have historically wanted to permeate every aspect of life with politics. The USSR used to say "everything is politics". There are plenty of examples... politics needs moderation. I wish that people could vent their passions with football like in the old days. At least everyone knew no one was "really serious" about why their team deserves world domination There is a time and place for politics (not at work). God knows how many times I've had to put on my earphones just to disappear from the latest office brawl about politics

988747 5y ago
Living "outside of politics" means having no self-preservation instinct. Politicians are like gangsters constantly plotting against you, trying to take your money from you, or force you to do things you don't want to do. They can make your life real Hell on Earth. The only chance of stopping them is by protesting loudly and by voting.
- gryfft 5y ago
  >Living "outside of politics" means having no self-preservation instinct It's also a privilege enjoyed by those who are allowed to think of their normal lives and needs as "nonpolitical". There are people living in the US for whom "I would like not to get murdered for no reason" is a political opinion.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Of course it's political. Politics is the argument over the distribution of the use of coercive power in society. People should not be murdered by the establishment without consequence, and the fact it happens regularly is an indictment to our culture and society.
carschno 5y ago
That is one way to see it, aka a political opinion.
- throwaway316943 5y ago
  i.e. everything is politics, comrade. Less facetiously: you’re trying to pigeon hole someone into your own belief system. Stop, you’re being a dink.
  - gryfft 5y ago
    Interesting example of identity politics here. "Don't talk about things I don't like or else you're a communist. You don't want to be a communist do you?"
    - throwaway316943 5y ago
      How is this identity politics? I responded to a comment that was essentially saying “all viewpoints are political” in response to a comment that literally said > Only dictatorships have historically wanted to permeate every aspect of life with politics. The USSR used to say "everything is politics". The communist jab was due to them using the same strategy that the USSR used. I’m not sure if they were doing that intentionally or unknowingly out of habit or ideology, in either case they were being obtuse.
      - wpietri 5y ago
        I think you grossly mischaracterize the comment you were responding to. And yes, invoking communism is very much an identity politics signifier in this discussion. One side of this debate is endlessly calling everything they don't like "communism" and "(cultural) Marxism". Which is pretty bonkers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th...
        throwaway316943 5y ago
wpietri 5y ago
> Believe it or not there are plenty of people who live their lifes outside of politics. Nobody lives their life outside of politics. At best, they ignore partisan politics. But they can only do that because the political status quo is one that favors them and the people they care about. I agree that an "office brawl about politics" is bad. But that's because brawls are bad, not because you can somehow have an office untouched by politics. Take the very simplest example: how many hours do you work a week? That number is determined by a political process. It always has been. When it was set purely by the rich people who owned businesses, 80 to 100 hours work weeks were common. Workers pushed back over decades; eventually we ended up with things like a 40-hour work week and overtime pay. Due to politics, that number has been rising in the US, with legal protections for workers decaying. Meanwhile, some people with more political and economic power have been pushing for shorter weeks. There's a long history to this, and it's all political: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/03/how-the-8-hour-workday-changed-how-americans-work.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/03/how-the-8-hour-workday-chang...
- collaborative 5y ago
  You can still do politics before and after work at your workplace entrance. You can even stage a walk-out where you demonstrate outside the office/factory/etc. But loudly spraying your opinion into your workmates ears who have no choice to be there is a form of torture. If there happen to be opposing loud "enlightened" people it will be a brawl. Although sometimes it's so one sided that the office can turn into a sort of one-party state. Politics is best kept out of the actual workplace
  - wpietri 5y ago
    If your only understanding of how politics can function in a workplace is "loudly spraying your opinion into your workmates ears who have no choice to be there" then that's your problem right there. Note also that your insistence that no "politics" happen in the workplace is political. So you can either hold true to your views and stop mentioning it or give it up and instead advocate for some more reasonable change.
ghusbands 5y ago
You're talking about partisan politics; most here are talking about the more general meaning of "the actions or activities concerned with achieving and using power in a country or society". So talking about workplace racism is political, but it's not about political parties.

yanderekko 5y ago

Yes, I indeed just don't want my politics questioned or examined, even when my critic has a questionable narrative of how it affects other people. I see how this is commonly leveraged as a superficial excuse to evangelize reluctant parties. "Silence is violence." I don't want to be subjected to company-sponsored political struggle sessions, nor do I want to subject others to company-sponsored political struggle sessions. Yes, this can superficially be construed of as a political belief. If you want to find some other mutually-agreeable term for the idea that one's workplace should not be dominated by partisan evangelizing, then I'm open to suggestions.

gryfft 5y ago
>company-sponsored political struggle sessions This is a strawman. I was not advocating company-sponsored political struggle sessions. Does a company-sponsored presentation discouraging unionization count as a "political struggle session?" I have been subjected to that before, and the company would not describe that as political -- no, they're just protecting their investments. For the employees whose lives the question of unionizing actually impacts, unionization is a furiously political question. I wasn't saying we need more corporate presentations about LGBTQA+ pride or BLM. But minorities exist, they're people, and their normal lives will often be "political" to those who are able and willing to ignore the problems those minorities face. "NO POLITICS PLEASE!" will silence those whose ideas are considered "political" while implicitly endorsing ideas that have been promoted to "apolitical." Here's a quote from an Innuendo Studios video[1] which has some relevance here: >The adage about bros on the internet is “‘political’ means anything I disagree with,” but it’d be more accurate to say, here, “‘political’ means anything on which the community disagrees.” For instance, “Nazis are bad” is an apolitical statement because everyone in the community agrees. It’s common sense, and therefore neutral. But, paradoxically, “Nazis are good” is also apolitical; because “Nazis are bad” is the consensus, “Nazis are good” must be just an edgy joke, and, even if not, the community already believes the opposite, so the statement is harmless. Tolerable. However, “feminism is good” is a political statement, because the community hasn’t reached consensus. It is debatable, and therefore political, and you should stop talking about it. And making political arguments, no matter how rational, is having an agenda, and having an agenda is ruining the community. [1] https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g