4 ms·

So, I haven't read the linked article, I'm just going off from what you say here. Hypothetically, say someone hates you, think you're a low life, that you're n

So, I haven't read the linked article, I'm just going off from what you say here. Hypothetically, say someone hates you, think you're a low life, that you're not as smart, and have bad habits, a trash culture, despise the way you dress and talk, and find your life choice repulsive, might even think you're tainted and doomed to eternal condemnation. Now say you work with this person, but at work they pretend like none of it. They act normal and casual with you, and so they don't exhibit an active hostile environment. Now say you found their online blog, where they basically reveal their sentiment about you. Lets even say they don't specifically mention you by name, but they clearly describe their hate for people which you'd identify as. Now you go to work the next day with this person... Will you also just pretend like none of it? Will that knowledge now not have inherently tainted the work environment for you? What if they're your manager?

imgabe 5y ago
Say you are the person who doesn't like one of your co-workers. Whatever reason, maybe they remind you of someone who treated you poorly. Maybe you just don't have compatible personalities. Whatever it is, something about them irks you. Still, you're a professional, so you treat them with the same respect and courtesy you treat everyone else. You vent your feelings on your livejournal or whatever. Keeping things anonymous, but your co-worker finds it and demands that you be fired. Should you be fired?
- didibus 5y ago
  You haven't answered my scenario. I'm just asking if in those circumstances I've described, if you'd still feel at ease and totally happy going to work pretending like none of it. Or if that knowledge of the hate your manager exhibits for people of your kind would make you resent working with them? This is the first thing I need to know, because I personally would not be able to walk in to work motivated and energetic after that, I'd be very uncomfortable from that point on working under that manager knowing what I now know is their opinion of people like me. If you'd be fine with this and have no issue going back to work for that manager. Well it'll be hard for us to agree on anything that follows. Now if this would also make you uncomfortable, we can move to the next point, which is, how should this situation be resolved? You now have a manager making their subordinate uncomfortable at work. They do so because of their publicly expressed hate, disdain, resentment and desire to oppress people of the same kind as the subordinate. As the employer, what do you think would be the right solution here? P.S.: I'm asking in good faith, I think it's a complex situation, I'm not saying that firing the manager is the best course of action, but it does seem like one way to solve the issue, so I'm actually curious to hear pros/cons and alternatives.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    If the manager continued to treat me professionally and fairly, why should I have a problem with their personal opinions? I'm not there to debate social issues, I'm there to do a job and make a living. As long as I can continue to do that, what does it matter what someone is thinking? If you let your work and motivation for your own career get derailed by people's unexpressed opinions (that you went out of your way to hunt down for--what? to find something to be offended about?), that is something you should work on.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    It’s not complex. It’s none of your business what people think about you. You might be shocked to find out that most people think some pretty fundamentally incompatible beliefs and look pretty harshly down on people outside of their realm of beliefs. Look at the stats on how many Muslims in the US ideally want Sharia as national law. Look at how many Christians desperately try to make the US Christian roots official and foam at the mouth when someone says “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”. Everyone thinks about half the other people are dog shit. That’s how the US works. It’s a thin veneer of camaraderie over a seething dissonance underneath.
xenihn 5y ago
Why are you using an outdated example (blogs), instead of extremely relevant & modern ones like Twitter and TikTok? Your scenario is basically describing a guy demanding that his coworker be fired because 90% of the content on her social media channels consist of some variation of "men are trash".
- didibus 5y ago
  Hum, no reason in particular, I mean replace blog with Twitter or TikTok, or really any public sphere. In my scenario what matters is just that you learn that your manager hates your kind and is active in publicizing that hate. Would that not make you feel uncomfortable going back to work as their subordinate? I'm not talking about firing them, I'm just asking if you'd now feel uncomfortable working with them?
  - xenihn 5y ago
    >In my scenario what matters is just that you learn that your manager hates your kind and is active in publicizing that hate. Would that not make you feel uncomfortable going back to work as their subordinate? you'll need to give me details about how this manager would actually treat me in this hypothetical situation if my manager constantly tweeted content that made it seem like they hated men in tech, but treated me fairly, why should I care about what they post on twitter?
  - Clampower 5y ago
    This just doesn’t work in practice. If you speak up about anyone at work posting hateful content about men or white people, you will be ignored and are likely to receive disciplinary action yourself. Even worse so, if you complain about misandrist words like “mansplaining” or “techbros” being used AT work, nothing will happen. This is purely one sided and makes workplaces extremely toxic.
    - pastage 5y ago
      I can not comment on specific events, is a really good expression. Even if you give a detailed explanation chances are I am going to see too many holes in it, just by coming from a different perspective. I've been a techbro at times, even though I'm a convinced feminist, but I also like to hear when my action are experienced that way. So I should not comment on your situation, I can just say that there are examples where complaints about that should at least taken lightly.
taneq 5y ago
What is your argument here? That your co-workers are obliged to only have positive feelings towards you? Yes, that would suck. And yes, you would feel bad about the whole situation. But unless they have actually victimized you in some manner (say, this blog actually identifies you, or they're actively hostile to you at work) then no, you aren't entitled to any action against them.
- didibus 5y ago
  I think some people are thinking, well what is done outside of work shouldn't have work repercussions. Except I think that's not the full extent of the issue. The problem here is that something done outside of work is making coworkers uncomfortable at work. That is now a work problem. The work environment is no longer making everyone feel safe and welcomed to perform their job, some will now feel uncomfortable doing so. I think some individuals might say, well that wouldn't make me uncomfortable, and good for them, in that case there'd be no problem. But it's also clear that some people will feel uncomfortable, and that's a real problem for the employer. So I'm curious what solutions people see to it? I feel like you need to choose whose going to "suck it up" and "deal with it". It could be either the people who learned of their hateful coworker/manager need to suck it up and continue to work with them. So you tell them, sorry, we won't do anything about it, suck it up or quit. Or you choose to tell the hateful coworker/manager to suck it up, apologize, show regret and stop doing what they do or quit. Ideally, you can like rearrange your teams to seperate them and not have those people work together anymore, but it can be just a matter of time till the new coworkers of that hateful person also find out about their publicly available views. So as an employer, you need to decide if that's worth the trouble and you might still want to tell them, you can't publicize that stuff anymore, suck it up or quit. I don't like any of these, since they all have a "loser". Personally, I think it's about what exactly was the source of "discomfort" and if it's reasonable or not. Which means it's probably a case by case thing. I also recon though that drawing that line can be challenging. For example, maybe I publicize about how wreck less, dangerous and vile gun carriers are, and I think they should all be jailed. Or maybe I publicize the same about anti-vax or anti-maskers. Personally again, I think if you publicly attack a group of people, and you work with that same group, I feel you got to suck it up. Find yourself a job not around them or stop hating on them publicly. This would apply to my example of a person hating on anti-maskers or on gun carriers as well. But I also recon even there, drawing the line is hard. For example, it's reasonable to want to publicly discuss if mask wearing should be enforced or not, or if gun carrying should be banned or not with a "common good" argument. Similarly someone might believe in a "common good" argument about preventing teenager from taking puberty suppressors, etc. And you'd want to allow these discussions. And this is where the thin line shows up, could that make a trans worker feel uncomfortable knowing their coworker argues that puberty suppressors should be regulated more heavily? My stance right now is that I think it is a complicated problem, but the status quo is not neutral, it takes a side that says, the hateful person is never the one to "suck it up", and I don't know that that's any better. So I still think the best thing is to look at these on a case by case basis and the employer needs to use their best judgement, and that means sometimes they might get it wrong, but it should be better than always siding with the hater as the status quo would have it.
kortilla 5y ago
> might even think you're tainted and doomed to eternal condemnation. This is pretty much literally the case with most strongly religious people and how they feel about non-religious or other religions. Shall we preemptively fire all Muslims, Christians, and Jews just to be safe?

imgabe 5y ago

Say you are the person who doesn't like one of your co-workers. Whatever reason, maybe they remind you of someone who treated you poorly. Maybe you just don't have compatible personalities. Whatever it is, something about them irks you. Still, you're a professional, so you treat them with the same respect and courtesy you treat everyone else. You vent your feelings on your livejournal or whatever. Keeping things anonymous, but your co-worker finds it and demands that you be fired. Should you be fired?

didibus 5y ago
You haven't answered my scenario. I'm just asking if in those circumstances I've described, if you'd still feel at ease and totally happy going to work pretending like none of it. Or if that knowledge of the hate your manager exhibits for people of your kind would make you resent working with them? This is the first thing I need to know, because I personally would not be able to walk in to work motivated and energetic after that, I'd be very uncomfortable from that point on working under that manager knowing what I now know is their opinion of people like me. If you'd be fine with this and have no issue going back to work for that manager. Well it'll be hard for us to agree on anything that follows. Now if this would also make you uncomfortable, we can move to the next point, which is, how should this situation be resolved? You now have a manager making their subordinate uncomfortable at work. They do so because of their publicly expressed hate, disdain, resentment and desire to oppress people of the same kind as the subordinate. As the employer, what do you think would be the right solution here? P.S.: I'm asking in good faith, I think it's a complex situation, I'm not saying that firing the manager is the best course of action, but it does seem like one way to solve the issue, so I'm actually curious to hear pros/cons and alternatives.
- imgabe 5y ago
  If the manager continued to treat me professionally and fairly, why should I have a problem with their personal opinions? I'm not there to debate social issues, I'm there to do a job and make a living. As long as I can continue to do that, what does it matter what someone is thinking? If you let your work and motivation for your own career get derailed by people's unexpressed opinions (that you went out of your way to hunt down for--what? to find something to be offended about?), that is something you should work on.
- kortilla 5y ago
  It’s not complex. It’s none of your business what people think about you. You might be shocked to find out that most people think some pretty fundamentally incompatible beliefs and look pretty harshly down on people outside of their realm of beliefs. Look at the stats on how many Muslims in the US ideally want Sharia as national law. Look at how many Christians desperately try to make the US Christian roots official and foam at the mouth when someone says “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”. Everyone thinks about half the other people are dog shit. That’s how the US works. It’s a thin veneer of camaraderie over a seething dissonance underneath.

xenihn 5y ago

Why are you using an outdated example (blogs), instead of extremely relevant & modern ones like Twitter and TikTok? Your scenario is basically describing a guy demanding that his coworker be fired because 90% of the content on her social media channels consist of some variation of "men are trash".

didibus 5y ago
Hum, no reason in particular, I mean replace blog with Twitter or TikTok, or really any public sphere. In my scenario what matters is just that you learn that your manager hates your kind and is active in publicizing that hate. Would that not make you feel uncomfortable going back to work as their subordinate? I'm not talking about firing them, I'm just asking if you'd now feel uncomfortable working with them?
- xenihn 5y ago
  >In my scenario what matters is just that you learn that your manager hates your kind and is active in publicizing that hate. Would that not make you feel uncomfortable going back to work as their subordinate? you'll need to give me details about how this manager would actually treat me in this hypothetical situation if my manager constantly tweeted content that made it seem like they hated men in tech, but treated me fairly, why should I care about what they post on twitter?
- Clampower 5y ago
  This just doesn’t work in practice. If you speak up about anyone at work posting hateful content about men or white people, you will be ignored and are likely to receive disciplinary action yourself. Even worse so, if you complain about misandrist words like “mansplaining” or “techbros” being used AT work, nothing will happen. This is purely one sided and makes workplaces extremely toxic.
  - pastage 5y ago
    I can not comment on specific events, is a really good expression. Even if you give a detailed explanation chances are I am going to see too many holes in it, just by coming from a different perspective. I've been a techbro at times, even though I'm a convinced feminist, but I also like to hear when my action are experienced that way. So I should not comment on your situation, I can just say that there are examples where complaints about that should at least taken lightly.

taneq 5y ago

What is your argument here? That your co-workers are obliged to only have positive feelings towards you? Yes, that would suck. And yes, you would feel bad about the whole situation. But unless they have actually victimized you in some manner (say, this blog actually identifies you, or they're actively hostile to you at work) then no, you aren't entitled to any action against them.

didibus 5y ago
I think some people are thinking, well what is done outside of work shouldn't have work repercussions. Except I think that's not the full extent of the issue. The problem here is that something done outside of work is making coworkers uncomfortable at work. That is now a work problem. The work environment is no longer making everyone feel safe and welcomed to perform their job, some will now feel uncomfortable doing so. I think some individuals might say, well that wouldn't make me uncomfortable, and good for them, in that case there'd be no problem. But it's also clear that some people will feel uncomfortable, and that's a real problem for the employer. So I'm curious what solutions people see to it? I feel like you need to choose whose going to "suck it up" and "deal with it". It could be either the people who learned of their hateful coworker/manager need to suck it up and continue to work with them. So you tell them, sorry, we won't do anything about it, suck it up or quit. Or you choose to tell the hateful coworker/manager to suck it up, apologize, show regret and stop doing what they do or quit. Ideally, you can like rearrange your teams to seperate them and not have those people work together anymore, but it can be just a matter of time till the new coworkers of that hateful person also find out about their publicly available views. So as an employer, you need to decide if that's worth the trouble and you might still want to tell them, you can't publicize that stuff anymore, suck it up or quit. I don't like any of these, since they all have a "loser". Personally, I think it's about what exactly was the source of "discomfort" and if it's reasonable or not. Which means it's probably a case by case thing. I also recon though that drawing that line can be challenging. For example, maybe I publicize about how wreck less, dangerous and vile gun carriers are, and I think they should all be jailed. Or maybe I publicize the same about anti-vax or anti-maskers. Personally again, I think if you publicly attack a group of people, and you work with that same group, I feel you got to suck it up. Find yourself a job not around them or stop hating on them publicly. This would apply to my example of a person hating on anti-maskers or on gun carriers as well. But I also recon even there, drawing the line is hard. For example, it's reasonable to want to publicly discuss if mask wearing should be enforced or not, or if gun carrying should be banned or not with a "common good" argument. Similarly someone might believe in a "common good" argument about preventing teenager from taking puberty suppressors, etc. And you'd want to allow these discussions. And this is where the thin line shows up, could that make a trans worker feel uncomfortable knowing their coworker argues that puberty suppressors should be regulated more heavily? My stance right now is that I think it is a complicated problem, but the status quo is not neutral, it takes a side that says, the hateful person is never the one to "suck it up", and I don't know that that's any better. So I still think the best thing is to look at these on a case by case basis and the employer needs to use their best judgement, and that means sometimes they might get it wrong, but it should be better than always siding with the hater as the status quo would have it.

kortilla 5y ago

> might even think you're tainted and doomed to eternal condemnation. This is pretty much literally the case with most strongly religious people and how they feel about non-religious or other religions. Shall we preemptively fire all Muslims, Christians, and Jews just to be safe?