6 ms·

Hmmm so much for "just works". Macos is becoming as buggy as the average Linux distro. They need to take a pause with adding features and clean it up.

fit2rule 5y ago
I recently had to go through the hell of setting up a Java development environment, plus Android emulation, on my new M1 MacBook .. mid-way through, I was cursing myself that I wasn't just using a Linux machine .. but okay, eventually, SDKMAN came to the rescue. For a while there it really felt pretty regressive ..
t8e56vd4ih 5y ago
teams works fine on windows and Linux but flickers heavily in my Mac. my Mac is asking me every login for my exchange creds despite having authenticated several times. my Mac is running hot and depleting battery without any discernable reason at random occasions. the esc key on my mbp 2019 itself is a bug in my opinion.
- 411111111111111 5y ago
  > teams works fine on windows and Linux I have to disagree there. It's so frigging laggy that it feels unusable as a communication tool.
  - 74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
    I use it only at work. It has many issues. Lagginess isn't one I noticed.
    - eitland 5y ago
      Teams is a case study in subtle and not so subtle bugs and ux issues: Just yesterday we spent time in a team meeting because someones Teams instance was malfunctioning. Sometimes restarting the application completely (be aware it idles in the systray) works, other times restarting the pc or disabling (or enabling) hardware acceleration will work. Other times it helps to move it to the built in monitor it seems. And sometimes, like yesterday, nothing including - all the above, - disabling incoming video - and reinstalling the application works. As for UX issues there's clicking on "join meeting" and continue working for a few minutes until you realize "ah, the first join meeting doesn't join the meeting, only opens the join meeting dialog". Another winner: when you click on the 7 more people icon to see who else are online and it does nothing. Or the fact that joining a started meeting is a multi step process (find calendar, find today, find the meeting click join and join). Yesterday I'm also sure I had an instance of sound getting through before I joined. Still, somethings works flawlessly for me: jumping seamlessly from one device to another during a meeting is fantastic. Sound is OK for me. Background switching is ok etc etc.
  - foepys 5y ago
    I have a very beefy laptop at work but with Teams I'm feeling like I'm using my old 133 MHz PC again. Everything takes so long to open that I'm growing increasingly mad when using it. Plus the statuses of my contacts are consistently wrong.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    I'm not sure whether that's a Linux specific issue. I've used teams on an older MBP and also on newer PCs (8th gen i5) with Windows, and the lag is always there for some reason. I've found ticking "disable animations" helps a little.
- mathstuf 5y ago
  Hmm. I've not had any success with Teams on Linux. Oddly, the behavior is also quite client-dependent: - Chromium: infinite login loop because why not - Flatpak: login works, but says my account isn't eligible for Teams (which blocks joining as even a guest?) - Firefox: doesn't even ask for a login and I can join, but no audio or video (either direction); chat works though Note that I only join existing meetings, never create any, so why I can get to the call without logging in on Firefox, but am blocked from even joining elsewhere is a real mystery to me.
  - washadjeffmad 5y ago
    Also using Teams on Linux, but this one happens to all clients. There's an authentication bug that causes a log in loop for anyone who signed up for a personal account using an email address that they also used as part of another MSN/live.com service (eg- as a secondary address), especially if your original Teams/O365 account was converted to a domain/business account. If you log into live.com with your Teams email, add a different fallback email and remove your current one, that may help.
- ansgri 5y ago
  Well, Teams has problems using my external USB mic on Linux Mint 19.3, when e.g. Zoom has no problems with it. Otherwise no significant bugs using Mint for last 5 years or so both on desktop and laptop.
- psychometry 5y ago
  Stop using crappy Microsoft products. It's not Apple's fault that MS is terrible at UX.
waheoo 5y ago
Mac os hasn't just worked for developers for a long time. They missed the entire container revolution with docker. I still come across Devs using Mac's that are afraid of docker because it's too confusing and black box. (It's Linux in there right?) At work we have a rather overengineered method of proxying to our production services for security reasons. Mac users are currently constantly having to deal with abstraction layers on top of abstraction layers to make things barely reliable. I just use a systemd unit file and haven't looked at it in years. Homebrew tool, while great for more obscure things, it should really only be a fallback, not the default. It's basically a confusing and black box version of the AUR. BSD/apple ways of doing things are just annoying. It's fine for the average user. But for Devs that want to do things in the same way they do them on their server it's just another hoop to jump through. The sad thing is that moving every Dev in the company over to Linux would probably be worthwhile long term, but I really don't think they have the willpower to relearn things even if they are that much better.
- qalmakka 5y ago
  The BSD way of doing things is fine, see FreeBSD and how nice it is to use it (until you start X, at least). The issues are 100% due to Apple's lack of care for developer concerns.
- toxik 5y ago
  There is no half decent email application or calendar on Linux. That alone is a showstopper for many.
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    Does Thunderbird not count? That satisfies email + calendars for me on both Linux and Mac.
    - merb 5y ago
      no exchange. there is owl but I did not find it satisfying
vbezhenar 5y ago
I installed Fedora Linux recently and used it for a few days. I did not spot a single bug, despite using it in a quite heavy scenario (Docker, Android Emulator, IDE, big file transfers). For example Windows had issues with sound drivers and GPU drivers, Linux is rock stable. Also it was as easy as macOS install: I just installed it in a 5 minutes and it was ready to work. With Windows I had to spent hours to install all the drivers from the manufacturer website (I tried to let Windows to install their own drivers, but it did not find all the necessary drivers). I have few issues with some Linux UI choices, for example I don't like Gnome 3 UI. But that's not a bug.
- willtim 5y ago
  That's really good to hear. Perhaps I need to stop using fringe distros like NixOS.
  - vereis 5y ago
    This works until something does go wrong. At least with NixOS you can simply roll back!
    - vbezhenar 5y ago
      Fedora uses btrfs by default. I don't think that snapshots are enabled by default, but quick googling reveals some instructions which should enable snapshots for updates. I guess that might help to achieve similar behaviour.
      - willtim 5y ago
        I don't think btrfs is a shining example of Linux stability/reliability. NixOS gives me rollbacks using XFS for root.
      - danieldk 5y ago
        Or, if you want to use Fedora, try Fedora Silverblue [1]. It uses an immutable root filesystem and offers atomic updates and rollbacks through OSTree. [1] https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/ https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/
Valmar 5y ago
lmao, what a amazingly shitty hot take... Your "average" Linux distro isn't "buggy" as you claim. You sound like someone who either hasn't used Linux, or extrapolates their experiences from one specific distro, to all distros. I say this as someone who uses Linux daily. Specifically, Arch Linux, with testing repos enabled. The only bugs I run into are from using Git master versions of software that I'm interesting in testing.
- willtim 5y ago
  I've used Linux since it was first available in the mid 90s. I use it at work and on machines at home. It is almost certainly more reliable than Windows and MacOS as a server. However, the context here is desktop UI and laptops. Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). If you wish to pretend that everything is perfect and there are no problems, then you aren't helping Linux either.
  - MonaroVXR 5y ago
    > Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). This is me figuring out my Optimus without Mux. My screen freezes when laptops (ASUS N76VB) resumes from sleep. (I don't know which state S1 - S4.) So I have "Fixed" the issue. But this was a problem of the HD Audio device driver? in the NVIDIA 740m? It was difficult to fix and I'm thinking about making a GitHub repository thing about it. I had this issue on Fedora, Ubuntu and Pop!_OS.
  - Valmar 5y ago
    > I've used Linux since it was first available in the mid 90s. I use it at work and on machines at home. It is almost certainly more reliable than Windows and MacOS as a server. However, the context here is desktop UI and laptops. Desktop UI is where Linux tends to shine. Laptops... oh, those are a royal mess, usually. > Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. No money at all? There are countless developers being paid to work on the Linux kernel. And on other pieces of software in userspace ~ usually by Red Hat. > But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) Hardware-related bugs are always an unpleasant can of fun... > and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). Bugs caused by software churn are also a thing. I personally haven't noticed anything major from many packages in the main repos. > If you wish to pretend that everything is perfect and there are no problems, then you aren't helping Linux either. Oops, I could have worded things slightly better, as in "not as "buggy"' instead of 'not "buggy"'. I sometimes miss words, only to realize later.
Dah00n 5y ago
In my opinion it's more buggy. The biggest difference is that many of those bugs are an active choice on Apple's part but I still see them as bugs. Especially because if people shout loud enough Apple changes the "feature" and says "this was a bug" but only if Twitter blows up enough. Otherwise it is a feature.
TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
Yeah, just put the interns on it next season. They'll just do the boring work the real programmers don't want to do. <eyeroll> Whenever a solid Apple bash comes up on HN, people just throw statements around to the effect of "Apple -- as an entire software and hardware conglomerate -- just doesn't 'care' any more," and that nothing in the entire freaking stack should ever exhibit a bug. It's almost like NO ONE around here actually works in SOFTWARE or HARDWARE. I guess no one else here has ever shipped an uncaught bug. I sure have. From my experience, the number of the kinds of issues being discussed here is EXCEEDINGLY low for the number of moving parts involved. I know, I know. Someone's going to say that since they do the whole stack themselves, they should NEVER ship a bug. Well, good luck with that. I'll believe it's humanly possible when I see it. And don't even start with how Linux or Windows is any better. I've been at this for 30 years. I know better.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  DSC, hardly an uncommon technology, worked perfectly in Catalina. It was entirely non-functional in public beta 1 of Big Sur. Here we are at 11.3.1 and it is still absolutely, utterly broken. Legions of users of varying monitors, varying GPUs, can't access the full feature set of their equipment that they used to be able. There are Radar reports back to the betas. Instead we get things like making sure you can buy AppleCare+ from the About This Mac option. Or buy a Pro Display XDR, because it seems that that is all Apple cares about for external monitors.

fit2rule 5y ago

I recently had to go through the hell of setting up a Java development environment, plus Android emulation, on my new M1 MacBook .. mid-way through, I was cursing myself that I wasn't just using a Linux machine .. but okay, eventually, SDKMAN came to the rescue. For a while there it really felt pretty regressive ..

t8e56vd4ih 5y ago

teams works fine on windows and Linux but flickers heavily in my Mac. my Mac is asking me every login for my exchange creds despite having authenticated several times. my Mac is running hot and depleting battery without any discernable reason at random occasions. the esc key on my mbp 2019 itself is a bug in my opinion.

411111111111111 5y ago
> teams works fine on windows and Linux I have to disagree there. It's so frigging laggy that it feels unusable as a communication tool.
- 74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
  I use it only at work. It has many issues. Lagginess isn't one I noticed.
  - eitland 5y ago
    Teams is a case study in subtle and not so subtle bugs and ux issues: Just yesterday we spent time in a team meeting because someones Teams instance was malfunctioning. Sometimes restarting the application completely (be aware it idles in the systray) works, other times restarting the pc or disabling (or enabling) hardware acceleration will work. Other times it helps to move it to the built in monitor it seems. And sometimes, like yesterday, nothing including - all the above, - disabling incoming video - and reinstalling the application works. As for UX issues there's clicking on "join meeting" and continue working for a few minutes until you realize "ah, the first join meeting doesn't join the meeting, only opens the join meeting dialog". Another winner: when you click on the 7 more people icon to see who else are online and it does nothing. Or the fact that joining a started meeting is a multi step process (find calendar, find today, find the meeting click join and join). Yesterday I'm also sure I had an instance of sound getting through before I joined. Still, somethings works flawlessly for me: jumping seamlessly from one device to another during a meeting is fantastic. Sound is OK for me. Background switching is ok etc etc.
- foepys 5y ago
  I have a very beefy laptop at work but with Teams I'm feeling like I'm using my old 133 MHz PC again. Everything takes so long to open that I'm growing increasingly mad when using it. Plus the statuses of my contacts are consistently wrong.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  I'm not sure whether that's a Linux specific issue. I've used teams on an older MBP and also on newer PCs (8th gen i5) with Windows, and the lag is always there for some reason. I've found ticking "disable animations" helps a little.
mathstuf 5y ago
Hmm. I've not had any success with Teams on Linux. Oddly, the behavior is also quite client-dependent: - Chromium: infinite login loop because why not - Flatpak: login works, but says my account isn't eligible for Teams (which blocks joining as even a guest?) - Firefox: doesn't even ask for a login and I can join, but no audio or video (either direction); chat works though Note that I only join existing meetings, never create any, so why I can get to the call without logging in on Firefox, but am blocked from even joining elsewhere is a real mystery to me.
- washadjeffmad 5y ago
  Also using Teams on Linux, but this one happens to all clients. There's an authentication bug that causes a log in loop for anyone who signed up for a personal account using an email address that they also used as part of another MSN/live.com service (eg- as a secondary address), especially if your original Teams/O365 account was converted to a domain/business account. If you log into live.com with your Teams email, add a different fallback email and remove your current one, that may help.
ansgri 5y ago
Well, Teams has problems using my external USB mic on Linux Mint 19.3, when e.g. Zoom has no problems with it. Otherwise no significant bugs using Mint for last 5 years or so both on desktop and laptop.
psychometry 5y ago
Stop using crappy Microsoft products. It's not Apple's fault that MS is terrible at UX.

waheoo 5y ago

Mac os hasn't just worked for developers for a long time. They missed the entire container revolution with docker. I still come across Devs using Mac's that are afraid of docker because it's too confusing and black box. (It's Linux in there right?) At work we have a rather overengineered method of proxying to our production services for security reasons. Mac users are currently constantly having to deal with abstraction layers on top of abstraction layers to make things barely reliable. I just use a systemd unit file and haven't looked at it in years. Homebrew tool, while great for more obscure things, it should really only be a fallback, not the default. It's basically a confusing and black box version of the AUR. BSD/apple ways of doing things are just annoying. It's fine for the average user. But for Devs that want to do things in the same way they do them on their server it's just another hoop to jump through. The sad thing is that moving every Dev in the company over to Linux would probably be worthwhile long term, but I really don't think they have the willpower to relearn things even if they are that much better.

qalmakka 5y ago
The BSD way of doing things is fine, see FreeBSD and how nice it is to use it (until you start X, at least). The issues are 100% due to Apple's lack of care for developer concerns.
toxik 5y ago
There is no half decent email application or calendar on Linux. That alone is a showstopper for many.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  Does Thunderbird not count? That satisfies email + calendars for me on both Linux and Mac.
  - merb 5y ago
    no exchange. there is owl but I did not find it satisfying

vbezhenar 5y ago

I installed Fedora Linux recently and used it for a few days. I did not spot a single bug, despite using it in a quite heavy scenario (Docker, Android Emulator, IDE, big file transfers). For example Windows had issues with sound drivers and GPU drivers, Linux is rock stable. Also it was as easy as macOS install: I just installed it in a 5 minutes and it was ready to work. With Windows I had to spent hours to install all the drivers from the manufacturer website (I tried to let Windows to install their own drivers, but it did not find all the necessary drivers). I have few issues with some Linux UI choices, for example I don't like Gnome 3 UI. But that's not a bug.

willtim 5y ago
That's really good to hear. Perhaps I need to stop using fringe distros like NixOS.
- vereis 5y ago
  This works until something does go wrong. At least with NixOS you can simply roll back!
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    Fedora uses btrfs by default. I don't think that snapshots are enabled by default, but quick googling reveals some instructions which should enable snapshots for updates. I guess that might help to achieve similar behaviour.
    - willtim 5y ago
      I don't think btrfs is a shining example of Linux stability/reliability. NixOS gives me rollbacks using XFS for root.
    - danieldk 5y ago
      Or, if you want to use Fedora, try Fedora Silverblue [1]. It uses an immutable root filesystem and offers atomic updates and rollbacks through OSTree. [1] https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/ https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/

Valmar 5y ago

lmao, what a amazingly shitty hot take... Your "average" Linux distro isn't "buggy" as you claim. You sound like someone who either hasn't used Linux, or extrapolates their experiences from one specific distro, to all distros. I say this as someone who uses Linux daily. Specifically, Arch Linux, with testing repos enabled. The only bugs I run into are from using Git master versions of software that I'm interesting in testing.

willtim 5y ago
I've used Linux since it was first available in the mid 90s. I use it at work and on machines at home. It is almost certainly more reliable than Windows and MacOS as a server. However, the context here is desktop UI and laptops. Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). If you wish to pretend that everything is perfect and there are no problems, then you aren't helping Linux either.
- MonaroVXR 5y ago
  > Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). This is me figuring out my Optimus without Mux. My screen freezes when laptops (ASUS N76VB) resumes from sleep. (I don't know which state S1 - S4.) So I have "Fixed" the issue. But this was a problem of the HD Audio device driver? in the NVIDIA 740m? It was difficult to fix and I'm thinking about making a GitHub repository thing about it. I had this issue on Fedora, Ubuntu and Pop!_OS.
- Valmar 5y ago
  > I've used Linux since it was first available in the mid 90s. I use it at work and on machines at home. It is almost certainly more reliable than Windows and MacOS as a server. However, the context here is desktop UI and laptops. Desktop UI is where Linux tends to shine. Laptops... oh, those are a royal mess, usually. > Linux does exceptionally well considering there is almost no money at all going into this use case. No money at all? There are countless developers being paid to work on the Linux kernel. And on other pieces of software in userspace ~ usually by Red Hat. > But there are many bugs, sometimes due to hardware (e.g ACPI inconsistencies, even Thinkpads have issues) Hardware-related bugs are always an unpleasant can of fun... > and because of software churn (few fix bugs in their spare time, it's more fun to create something new). Bugs caused by software churn are also a thing. I personally haven't noticed anything major from many packages in the main repos. > If you wish to pretend that everything is perfect and there are no problems, then you aren't helping Linux either. Oops, I could have worded things slightly better, as in "not as "buggy"' instead of 'not "buggy"'. I sometimes miss words, only to realize later.

Dah00n 5y ago

In my opinion it's more buggy. The biggest difference is that many of those bugs are an active choice on Apple's part but I still see them as bugs. Especially because if people shout loud enough Apple changes the "feature" and says "this was a bug" but only if Twitter blows up enough. Otherwise it is a feature.

TheRealDunkirk 5y ago

Yeah, just put the interns on it next season. They'll just do the boring work the real programmers don't want to do. <eyeroll> Whenever a solid Apple bash comes up on HN, people just throw statements around to the effect of "Apple -- as an entire software and hardware conglomerate -- just doesn't 'care' any more," and that nothing in the entire freaking stack should ever exhibit a bug. It's almost like NO ONE around here actually works in SOFTWARE or HARDWARE. I guess no one else here has ever shipped an uncaught bug. I sure have. From my experience, the number of the kinds of issues being discussed here is EXCEEDINGLY low for the number of moving parts involved. I know, I know. Someone's going to say that since they do the whole stack themselves, they should NEVER ship a bug. Well, good luck with that. I'll believe it's humanly possible when I see it. And don't even start with how Linux or Windows is any better. I've been at this for 30 years. I know better.

FireBeyond 5y ago
DSC, hardly an uncommon technology, worked perfectly in Catalina. It was entirely non-functional in public beta 1 of Big Sur. Here we are at 11.3.1 and it is still absolutely, utterly broken. Legions of users of varying monitors, varying GPUs, can't access the full feature set of their equipment that they used to be able. There are Radar reports back to the betas. Instead we get things like making sure you can buy AppleCare+ from the About This Mac option. Or buy a Pro Display XDR, because it seems that that is all Apple cares about for external monitors.