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May be talking past each other here, but I’m thinking of a scenario where a person puts out writing that shows mysogynistic or racist/homophobic views and then

May be talking past each other here, but I’m thinking of a scenario where a person puts out writing that shows mysogynistic or racist/homophobic views and then is responsible for giving performance reviews, or hiring/firing people. Bias is hard to prove in the moment as there can always be other factors to point to, but easy to see in statistics of who gets hired and promoted.

imgabe 5y ago
Right, my point is that it's the statistics that matter, not circumstantial evidence like opinions they expressed in the past. If there's a murder in the workplace, sure, maybe the employee who writes murder mysteries on the weekend did it. But you'd still need actual evidence to convict them.
- enraged_camel 5y ago
  We're not talking about convicting them though, we're talking about whether they can continue being a part of the workplace without making others feel threatened. If you're black, and you know that one of your managers is a member of the KKK, there's absolutely zero chance you'll feel that they are treating you fairly. There's also nearly zero chance they will treat you fairly. The fact of the matter is that work life does not exist in a vacuum. People don't come to work and pretend that things outside of work don't exist. They are also not obligated to treat their coworkers as simple cogs in a machine. This is why things people do outside of work can reflect upon their work relationships. Expecting the opposite is just naive.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    Feelings are often wrong. That's why we don't make important decisions that affect people's lives based on feelings. We make them on facts and evidence. It is everyone's job to temper their feelings with reason. Your feelings are not an absolute truth that must be obeyed no matter what.
    - taurath 5y ago
      I don’t think that’s what the person you’re responding to is saying, and it seems like you’re saying it as if they’re talking about the primacy of feelings over facts. It’s a bit of a straw man. Take the example they made of a KKK member - should they be trusted to make those decisions based on facts and evidence?
      - imgabe 5y ago
        In their example, the manager is already employed there. You don't have to trust them. You can look at the decisions they've made and see whether they made them fairly. If not, then go ahead and fire them. But "I feel they might be unfair", when all the evidence shows that they have in fact been fair, is not a valid reason to fire someone.
        taurath 5y ago
        Glad your life is working out for you and your experience leads you to believe in a just world. Discrimination is hard to prove. Having someone even tell you they are biased doesn’t seem to meet your bar. I hope you never have to experience it.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

imgabe 5y ago

Right, my point is that it's the statistics that matter, not circumstantial evidence like opinions they expressed in the past. If there's a murder in the workplace, sure, maybe the employee who writes murder mysteries on the weekend did it. But you'd still need actual evidence to convict them.

enraged_camel 5y ago
We're not talking about convicting them though, we're talking about whether they can continue being a part of the workplace without making others feel threatened. If you're black, and you know that one of your managers is a member of the KKK, there's absolutely zero chance you'll feel that they are treating you fairly. There's also nearly zero chance they will treat you fairly. The fact of the matter is that work life does not exist in a vacuum. People don't come to work and pretend that things outside of work don't exist. They are also not obligated to treat their coworkers as simple cogs in a machine. This is why things people do outside of work can reflect upon their work relationships. Expecting the opposite is just naive.
- imgabe 5y ago
  Feelings are often wrong. That's why we don't make important decisions that affect people's lives based on feelings. We make them on facts and evidence. It is everyone's job to temper their feelings with reason. Your feelings are not an absolute truth that must be obeyed no matter what.
  - taurath 5y ago
    I don’t think that’s what the person you’re responding to is saying, and it seems like you’re saying it as if they’re talking about the primacy of feelings over facts. It’s a bit of a straw man. Take the example they made of a KKK member - should they be trusted to make those decisions based on facts and evidence?
    - imgabe 5y ago
      In their example, the manager is already employed there. You don't have to trust them. You can look at the decisions they've made and see whether they made them fairly. If not, then go ahead and fire them. But "I feel they might be unfair", when all the evidence shows that they have in fact been fair, is not a valid reason to fire someone.
      - taurath 5y ago
        Glad your life is working out for you and your experience leads you to believe in a just world. Discrimination is hard to prove. Having someone even tell you they are biased doesn’t seem to meet your bar. I hope you never have to experience it.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]