7 ms·

What's interesting is we have a sort of 'natural experiment' in the US, where a significant fraction of the population in Minnesota, the Upper Peninsula of Mich

What's interesting is we have a sort of 'natural experiment' in the US, where a significant fraction of the population in Minnesota, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and the Dakotas, are descended from Scandinavians. They have a very low crime rate, several times lower than the white average. There was a study on this, and Swedish-Americans and Norwegian-Americans commit crime at about the same rate as Swedes and Norwegians, which is to say, not often.

Judgmentality 5y ago
I would really love a link to that paper. A quick google search didn't turn up what I was looking for.
- samatman 5y ago
  I'm quite sure I'll never see it again. I save papers relevant to my profession and hobbies, and US crime statistics are neither. I did manage to dredge this link up, which says that in 1973, Minnesota had the lowest high school drop-out rate in the nation, and the third-lowest crime after Iowa and Maine. http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/12_cunninghamg_timemag/ http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/12_cu... Which is no smoking gun, but is suggestive. I'm sure someone could do a deep dive on academic literature in criminology and turn it up, but it won't be me I'm afraid.
batguano 5y ago
This is one of the most boldly racist statements I have ever seen on Hacker News.
- outlace 5y ago
  I can see how it could be interpreted that way. My first reaction was (if the claim is true) that must be cultural memes as the cause, as a genetic cause automatically was implausible to me.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
    > as a genetic cause automatically was implausible to me. I agree. Given that Scandinavia was the homeland of the Vikings, I think arguing that they have a genetic predisposition away from crime would seem rather absurd.
    - qwytw 5y ago
      Significant amounts of Vikings left Scandinavia to settle other places in Europe, so maybe the ones left behind were less predisposed to commit crimes /s
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        This is sort of a variant of the voluntary settlement hypothesis which I always found entertaining.
    - nec4b 5y ago
      Why is it absurd? The most violent ones left Scandinavia and died fighting or settled elsewhere.
  - haram_masala 5y ago
    Why would a genetic cause be implausible? Genetics guide human behavior. It seems very unlikely that behavior doesn’t vary among ethnic groups, but many other phenotypic factors do.
- sk5t 5y ago
  Could not have some tenets of Scandinavian cultures survived in those regions? If so, would it be racist to study cultural differences and effects of relative monoculture?
- exporectomy 5y ago
  If it's true, then are you either anti-truth or pro-racism?
  - Sebguer 5y ago
    Oh, yes, the ONLY two possibilities here. Definitely not just the fact that there are many other factors at play.
    - akvadrako 5y ago
      He said "if it's true" and it's certainly an interesting question.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- samatman 5y ago
  There are a few possibilities, right? - I'm making it up. I'm not, but that would just be taking my word for it twice. - It's true, and completely random. Seems unlikely. - It's true, and Scandinavians have a magic low-crime blood factor, perhaps it adheres to the blond gene, next to the lutefisk-appreciation gene. That would be weird, huh? Not necessarily racist, but weird. - It's true, and Scandinavian Americans have cultural continuity with their brethren in the home countries. That's pretty boring and normal, so this is the one I picked. - It's true, and due to the Aryan superiority of the Nordic white race, which we must preserve so they can continue to dominate the swarthy people of the world. You picked that one, not me. I think it's absurd.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I enjoy hypothesis generation so (with no judgment implied), here’s another: - historical coincidence caused subgroup migration from those regions at the time, and there is cultural continuity with that subgroup After all, Indian Americans are a remarkably tiny high-median-income, low-crime ethnic subgroup in America.
hakfoo 5y ago
I've often theorized that what we call "American exceptionalism" (and similarly Canadian, Australian, and New Zealandese) is made up of the fact these countries are very heavily populated with early-generation, by-choice immigrants. The population was effectively self-selected for those ambitious enough to emigrate, and in many areas, tame a new frontier and/or start businesses. They were then dumped in an environment highly supportive to it (cheap land and natural resources, rapid technical advancement providing huge vistas of economic opportunity) That probably has a significant ripple effect for a few generations. (The "Grandpa had to swim across the Atlantic and learn English and sweep floors to get started, so he's going to ride his kids to make sure they get the most of their education" pattern) On the other hand, I suspect there's some toxic counterfactors in that; the celebration of bootstrap-pullers tends to encourage "I've got mine" attitudes and may end up underserving parts of the community that would benefit from more social support and community services.
- Animats 5y ago
  Not Australia. That was a penal colony.
  - hakfoo 5y ago
    I suspect there was a point where the immigrant mix turned by-choice though.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      Not a historian, but I believe this wouldn't have been until either the good rush of post-war migration boom. Either way, several generations after the convicts first arrived.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Judgmentality 5y ago

I would really love a link to that paper. A quick google search didn't turn up what I was looking for.

samatman 5y ago
I'm quite sure I'll never see it again. I save papers relevant to my profession and hobbies, and US crime statistics are neither. I did manage to dredge this link up, which says that in 1973, Minnesota had the lowest high school drop-out rate in the nation, and the third-lowest crime after Iowa and Maine. http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/12_cunninghamg_timemag/ http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/12_cu... Which is no smoking gun, but is suggestive. I'm sure someone could do a deep dive on academic literature in criminology and turn it up, but it won't be me I'm afraid.

batguano 5y ago

This is one of the most boldly racist statements I have ever seen on Hacker News.

outlace 5y ago
I can see how it could be interpreted that way. My first reaction was (if the claim is true) that must be cultural memes as the cause, as a genetic cause automatically was implausible to me.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  > as a genetic cause automatically was implausible to me. I agree. Given that Scandinavia was the homeland of the Vikings, I think arguing that they have a genetic predisposition away from crime would seem rather absurd.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    Significant amounts of Vikings left Scandinavia to settle other places in Europe, so maybe the ones left behind were less predisposed to commit crimes /s
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      This is sort of a variant of the voluntary settlement hypothesis which I always found entertaining.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    Why is it absurd? The most violent ones left Scandinavia and died fighting or settled elsewhere.
- haram_masala 5y ago
  Why would a genetic cause be implausible? Genetics guide human behavior. It seems very unlikely that behavior doesn’t vary among ethnic groups, but many other phenotypic factors do.
sk5t 5y ago
Could not have some tenets of Scandinavian cultures survived in those regions? If so, would it be racist to study cultural differences and effects of relative monoculture?
exporectomy 5y ago
If it's true, then are you either anti-truth or pro-racism?
- Sebguer 5y ago
  Oh, yes, the ONLY two possibilities here. Definitely not just the fact that there are many other factors at play.
  - akvadrako 5y ago
    He said "if it's true" and it's certainly an interesting question.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
samatman 5y ago
There are a few possibilities, right? - I'm making it up. I'm not, but that would just be taking my word for it twice. - It's true, and completely random. Seems unlikely. - It's true, and Scandinavians have a magic low-crime blood factor, perhaps it adheres to the blond gene, next to the lutefisk-appreciation gene. That would be weird, huh? Not necessarily racist, but weird. - It's true, and Scandinavian Americans have cultural continuity with their brethren in the home countries. That's pretty boring and normal, so this is the one I picked. - It's true, and due to the Aryan superiority of the Nordic white race, which we must preserve so they can continue to dominate the swarthy people of the world. You picked that one, not me. I think it's absurd.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  I enjoy hypothesis generation so (with no judgment implied), here’s another: - historical coincidence caused subgroup migration from those regions at the time, and there is cultural continuity with that subgroup After all, Indian Americans are a remarkably tiny high-median-income, low-crime ethnic subgroup in America.

hakfoo 5y ago

I've often theorized that what we call "American exceptionalism" (and similarly Canadian, Australian, and New Zealandese) is made up of the fact these countries are very heavily populated with early-generation, by-choice immigrants. The population was effectively self-selected for those ambitious enough to emigrate, and in many areas, tame a new frontier and/or start businesses. They were then dumped in an environment highly supportive to it (cheap land and natural resources, rapid technical advancement providing huge vistas of economic opportunity) That probably has a significant ripple effect for a few generations. (The "Grandpa had to swim across the Atlantic and learn English and sweep floors to get started, so he's going to ride his kids to make sure they get the most of their education" pattern) On the other hand, I suspect there's some toxic counterfactors in that; the celebration of bootstrap-pullers tends to encourage "I've got mine" attitudes and may end up underserving parts of the community that would benefit from more social support and community services.

Animats 5y ago
Not Australia. That was a penal colony.
- hakfoo 5y ago
  I suspect there was a point where the immigrant mix turned by-choice though.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Not a historian, but I believe this wouldn't have been until either the good rush of post-war migration boom. Either way, several generations after the convicts first arrived.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]