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Unfortunately, in the never-ending struggle to force employees to conform to some platonic ideal of efficient production, companies have spent a lot of time and

by bsanr2 5y ago

Unfortunately, in the never-ending struggle to force employees to conform to some platonic ideal of efficient production, companies have spent a lot of time and energy - not just in their own policy, but also in lobbying to the government and the public at large - trying to make work the center of the average American's life. Think of all the things you have to pass by your boss before making decisions about your own life: which doctor you go to, where you might live, when you might take time for yourself and your family. So, this is the flipside. We're not like Germany or Sweden, where the means to simply exist are widely accessible outside of work, and where work ends when it ends, on the dot. Our companies spend millions and millions of dollars going over our heads to influence our legislative representatives, and seek ever greater and ever more direct influence on employees. You have to expect pushback. And political activism within companies, and pressure from employees for companies to be active in the way they desire, is the predictable - and, frankly, justifiable - form that that pushback takes. Kick everyone out of the office at 5PM and you'll see a lot fewer people so invested in the political environment within and driven by their employers.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
> We're not like Germany or Sweden, where the means to simply exist are widely accessible outside of work, and where work ends when it ends, on the dot This is a curious fantasy that many Americans hold. After having spent the best part of a decade working mostly in Sweden and Germany, I can tell you this has no basis in reality.
- bsanr2 5y ago
  It's the impression that I've gotten from every review of the subject, even from natives, so, "no basis in reality" seems like a stretch. At the very least, it is objectively true that people in these countries work fewer hours than Americans do. But I tend to believe that it extends beyond this, and that there is a fundamentally different approach to work in these countries than in America. If people here want the paradigm to be "work is work," then the sacrifice is that you carve out of the work-centered lifestyle Americans live more time and energy that work cannot touch. If your contention is that Europe is not perfect in this regard, that's orthogonal to my point, which used those (perhaps idealized) examples as naught more than illustrations.
inglor_cz 5y ago
Americans tend to idealize European countries. We generally have a more accessible healthcare, but otherwise, well... European cities are chock-full of beggars and homeless people. Welfare structures are often hidden behind a high wall of bureaucratic compliance that pretty much locks some people out. And even if you can manage those, your simple existence won't be on a level of a person with a normal job. Especially a single young person or a childless family cannot expect living beyond a very, very basic level from welfare money. Low enough that you won't be very happy. Also, work does not end on the dot in Europe either. There are some countries that enshrined the right to do so into laws, but most have not. If you compete in a global economy, there tends to be a race to the bottom.
_0ffh 5y ago
>where work ends when it ends In the last year alone, despite the pandemic, Germans have worked 1.67 billion extra hours. More than half of them unpaid.

by bsanr2 5y ago

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago

> We're not like Germany or Sweden, where the means to simply exist are widely accessible outside of work, and where work ends when it ends, on the dot This is a curious fantasy that many Americans hold. After having spent the best part of a decade working mostly in Sweden and Germany, I can tell you this has no basis in reality.

bsanr2 5y ago
It's the impression that I've gotten from every review of the subject, even from natives, so, "no basis in reality" seems like a stretch. At the very least, it is objectively true that people in these countries work fewer hours than Americans do. But I tend to believe that it extends beyond this, and that there is a fundamentally different approach to work in these countries than in America. If people here want the paradigm to be "work is work," then the sacrifice is that you carve out of the work-centered lifestyle Americans live more time and energy that work cannot touch. If your contention is that Europe is not perfect in this regard, that's orthogonal to my point, which used those (perhaps idealized) examples as naught more than illustrations.

inglor_cz 5y ago

Americans tend to idealize European countries. We generally have a more accessible healthcare, but otherwise, well... European cities are chock-full of beggars and homeless people. Welfare structures are often hidden behind a high wall of bureaucratic compliance that pretty much locks some people out. And even if you can manage those, your simple existence won't be on a level of a person with a normal job. Especially a single young person or a childless family cannot expect living beyond a very, very basic level from welfare money. Low enough that you won't be very happy. Also, work does not end on the dot in Europe either. There are some countries that enshrined the right to do so into laws, but most have not. If you compete in a global economy, there tends to be a race to the bottom.

_0ffh 5y ago

>where work ends when it ends In the last year alone, despite the pandemic, Germans have worked 1.67 billion extra hours. More than half of them unpaid.