5 ms·

It’s well worth reading up on the details of the Basecamp disaster. At every point in the process, it was about work. How people behaved at work, how clients we

by moomin 5y ago

It’s well worth reading up on the details of the Basecamp disaster. At every point in the process, it was about work. How people behaved at work, how clients were treated, how people reacted to feedback, how information was communicated. It may have been “politics” but it was in no way separable from Basecamp‘s core business.

nailer 5y ago
From having read about the details: someone took a list making fun of mainly European (‘white’ in American) names and posted an image saying mocking people leads to genocide. Yes this is easily separable from making productivity tools.
- nefitty 5y ago
  Although my immediate reaction to the Pyramid of Hate [1] was a similar jump to, “is this saying jokes will lead to genocide?!”, ultimately I don’t think that was the intent. People seemed to have interpreted it in different ways, specifically “You’re telling me I support genocide if I think someone’s name is funny?” I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression. I think it’s a simplification to say that they lead to genocide, because those sorts of results are dependent on many other factors (ie economic problems, political instability, etc). When combined, these factors result in greater oppression. More apropos to the conversation regarding workplaces, I would consider them evolving into institutions where certain cultural norms are upheld. The more institutions within which a certain cultural norm is respected by individuals, the more other people/institutions in power have leeway to move in certain directions. [1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of-hate.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of...
  - wearywanderer 5y ago
    My perspective on this is you don't lob any sort of infographic about genocide at somebody without meaning to tarnish them. That's escalating the seriousness of a conversation drastically. Making fun of people named Dickinson is not remotely cool, but bringing genocide into the resulting conversation seems way over the line.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      The graphic isn't about genocide. It's about all the things mentioned.
      - wearywanderer 5y ago
        Is genocide not the most serious subject that infographic brings up? It's not some minor footnote in the infographic; it's right at the very top in the most prominent position. I'd say that infographic is more about genocide than anything else.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        The graphic is about how each level is supported by the level beneath it. Minor footnote is a straw man and false dichotomy. The graphic is about all the things like I said. It wouldn't be less about genocide if it was an escalating list. It isn't less about biased attitudes because it's a pyramid.
        wearywanderer 5y ago
        The infographic being substantially about genocide, albeit not exclusively about genocide, does not change how I feel about it's use in that conversation: a blatantly hostile escalation. When you send somebody this infographic to scold them, you are insinuating that their actions might lay a foundation for genocide. That message comes across loud and clear, and in the Basecamp context, was plainly over the line.
  - prepend 5y ago
    > I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression. I don’t think I accept this theory. But if I did, it’s not relevant because the list wasn’t making fun of “others” and seemed to have no correlation to any particular vulnerable population. So it’s both an issue of an arguable diagram in the first place (even if the ADL created it) introduced in a place that was not relevant since there were very few Asian names on the list yet the discussion seemed to really get into racial issues that didn’t apply to the situation. Of course, had employees been mocking or belittling people because of their race or the list was 94% Asian (instead of the 94% euro) then it’s a different story and the discussion would be very different. But that’s not “woke” that’s just enforcing ethical codes in employees to not discriminate based on race.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
    How is that pyramid not classic slippery slope fallacy? You could make a pyramid where you have violent movies and playing violent video games leads to a person becoming a serial killer arguing that violent movies and video games desensitize you to murder.
    - GeneralMayhem 5y ago
      It's only a slippery slope fallacy if the progression is hypothetical and unjustified - otherwise, it's an actual slippery slope. The progression from normalization of racial animosity to genocide - on a societal level, not the strawman that any individual will make an off-color joke today and build the gas chambers tomorrow - is something that has demonstrably happened multiple times in the past couple of centuries, unlike the link between violent media and actual violence.
      - eschaton 5y ago
        Indeed, it’s worth discussing because it was used as a blueprint by some of the despots of the twentieth century; it’s not just something that was figured out after the fact. These despots were even very open about their plans and methodologies. Hitler specifically cited as inspirations the United States’ systematic oppression and genocide of indigenous peoples, and the Ottomans’ oppression and genocide of Armenians. This stuff has never happened in a vacuum. Anyone who insists on always arguing from first principles is—most charitably—being a useful idiot for those who know exactly what they’re trying to do.
      - mdoms 5y ago
        If it has been demonstrated multiple times then it should be no problem for you to provide some examples.
        hashhar 5y ago
        Rwanda? Uighurs? Sudan? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Bosnia and Herzegovina? Holocaust?
ghufran_syed 5y ago
It’s too early yet to see whether the whole episode at basecamp was net positive or negative for the company.
GeneralMayhem 5y ago
Yep. The story of Basecamp is a story of how the extreme-right is able to successfully tar any progress - or, frankly, any lack of regress - as "politics", and therefore something that belongs in a box somewhere else, to be addressed at some other time. When what you want is the status quo, you can always look like the great reconciler by saying "this isn't the time for this conversation", because you win by default.
- rimliu 5y ago
  When you are extremely to the left everything else is to the right, right?
  - GeneralMayhem 5y ago
    Not everyone, but if you think it's a good idea to get on stage and say that white supremacy doesn't exist as a significant part of American culture, I think I have a pretty solid idea who you voted for in 2020. Especially if you have a reputation for reposting Breitbart articles. As an outsider, what it looks like happened at Basecamp was: 1. Some people did something insensitive. Not great, but not the end of the world. 2. Some people - possibly overlapping the previous group - call out that said activity is insensitive, and ask for it to stop. Possibly not in the politest way possible, but also not starting fights. 3. A right-wing extremist in a position of power gets bent out of shape and uses his position of power to say that racism doesn't real, and that microaggressions are pretty cool, actually. 4. Chaos ensues. CEO doesn't immediately tell right-wing extremist to fuck off, and instead thanks him for his contributions - which, while understandable in the heat of the moment, isn't a good look for him... especially since he has no deniability about already knowing extremist's true colors. 5. Rather than taking sides between slightly over-enthusiastic concerned employees and right-wing extremism, CEO says that all politics are now off limits, which makes it sound like both sides were equally at fault. Right-wing extremist's position is thus legitimized, which is likely all he wanted in the first place.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

by moomin 5y ago

nailer 5y ago

From having read about the details: someone took a list making fun of mainly European (‘white’ in American) names and posted an image saying mocking people leads to genocide. Yes this is easily separable from making productivity tools.

nefitty 5y ago
Although my immediate reaction to the Pyramid of Hate [1] was a similar jump to, “is this saying jokes will lead to genocide?!”, ultimately I don’t think that was the intent. People seemed to have interpreted it in different ways, specifically “You’re telling me I support genocide if I think someone’s name is funny?” I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression. I think it’s a simplification to say that they lead to genocide, because those sorts of results are dependent on many other factors (ie economic problems, political instability, etc). When combined, these factors result in greater oppression. More apropos to the conversation regarding workplaces, I would consider them evolving into institutions where certain cultural norms are upheld. The more institutions within which a certain cultural norm is respected by individuals, the more other people/institutions in power have leeway to move in certain directions. [1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of-hate.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of...
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  My perspective on this is you don't lob any sort of infographic about genocide at somebody without meaning to tarnish them. That's escalating the seriousness of a conversation drastically. Making fun of people named Dickinson is not remotely cool, but bringing genocide into the resulting conversation seems way over the line.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    The graphic isn't about genocide. It's about all the things mentioned.
    - wearywanderer 5y ago
      Is genocide not the most serious subject that infographic brings up? It's not some minor footnote in the infographic; it's right at the very top in the most prominent position. I'd say that infographic is more about genocide than anything else.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        The graphic is about how each level is supported by the level beneath it. Minor footnote is a straw man and false dichotomy. The graphic is about all the things like I said. It wouldn't be less about genocide if it was an escalating list. It isn't less about biased attitudes because it's a pyramid.
        wearywanderer 5y ago
        The infographic being substantially about genocide, albeit not exclusively about genocide, does not change how I feel about it's use in that conversation: a blatantly hostile escalation. When you send somebody this infographic to scold them, you are insinuating that their actions might lay a foundation for genocide. That message comes across loud and clear, and in the Basecamp context, was plainly over the line.
- prepend 5y ago
  > I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression. I don’t think I accept this theory. But if I did, it’s not relevant because the list wasn’t making fun of “others” and seemed to have no correlation to any particular vulnerable population. So it’s both an issue of an arguable diagram in the first place (even if the ADL created it) introduced in a place that was not relevant since there were very few Asian names on the list yet the discussion seemed to really get into racial issues that didn’t apply to the situation. Of course, had employees been mocking or belittling people because of their race or the list was 94% Asian (instead of the 94% euro) then it’s a different story and the discussion would be very different. But that’s not “woke” that’s just enforcing ethical codes in employees to not discriminate based on race.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  How is that pyramid not classic slippery slope fallacy? You could make a pyramid where you have violent movies and playing violent video games leads to a person becoming a serial killer arguing that violent movies and video games desensitize you to murder.
  - GeneralMayhem 5y ago
    It's only a slippery slope fallacy if the progression is hypothetical and unjustified - otherwise, it's an actual slippery slope. The progression from normalization of racial animosity to genocide - on a societal level, not the strawman that any individual will make an off-color joke today and build the gas chambers tomorrow - is something that has demonstrably happened multiple times in the past couple of centuries, unlike the link between violent media and actual violence.
    - eschaton 5y ago
      Indeed, it’s worth discussing because it was used as a blueprint by some of the despots of the twentieth century; it’s not just something that was figured out after the fact. These despots were even very open about their plans and methodologies. Hitler specifically cited as inspirations the United States’ systematic oppression and genocide of indigenous peoples, and the Ottomans’ oppression and genocide of Armenians. This stuff has never happened in a vacuum. Anyone who insists on always arguing from first principles is—most charitably—being a useful idiot for those who know exactly what they’re trying to do.
    - mdoms 5y ago
      If it has been demonstrated multiple times then it should be no problem for you to provide some examples.
      - hashhar 5y ago
        Rwanda? Uighurs? Sudan? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Bosnia and Herzegovina? Holocaust?

ghufran_syed 5y ago

It’s too early yet to see whether the whole episode at basecamp was net positive or negative for the company.

GeneralMayhem 5y ago

Yep. The story of Basecamp is a story of how the extreme-right is able to successfully tar any progress - or, frankly, any lack of regress - as "politics", and therefore something that belongs in a box somewhere else, to be addressed at some other time. When what you want is the status quo, you can always look like the great reconciler by saying "this isn't the time for this conversation", because you win by default.

rimliu 5y ago
When you are extremely to the left everything else is to the right, right?
- GeneralMayhem 5y ago
  Not everyone, but if you think it's a good idea to get on stage and say that white supremacy doesn't exist as a significant part of American culture, I think I have a pretty solid idea who you voted for in 2020. Especially if you have a reputation for reposting Breitbart articles. As an outsider, what it looks like happened at Basecamp was: 1. Some people did something insensitive. Not great, but not the end of the world. 2. Some people - possibly overlapping the previous group - call out that said activity is insensitive, and ask for it to stop. Possibly not in the politest way possible, but also not starting fights. 3. A right-wing extremist in a position of power gets bent out of shape and uses his position of power to say that racism doesn't real, and that microaggressions are pretty cool, actually. 4. Chaos ensues. CEO doesn't immediately tell right-wing extremist to fuck off, and instead thanks him for his contributions - which, while understandable in the heat of the moment, isn't a good look for him... especially since he has no deniability about already knowing extremist's true colors. 5. Rather than taking sides between slightly over-enthusiastic concerned employees and right-wing extremism, CEO says that all politics are now off limits, which makes it sound like both sides were equally at fault. Right-wing extremist's position is thus legitimized, which is likely all he wanted in the first place.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]