5 ms·

I can buy a book directly on the Amazon iOS app, but I can't buy an ebook. That seems like the most fundamental problem to me and a clear case that this is ant

by jmole 5y ago

I can buy a book directly on the Amazon iOS app, but I can't buy an ebook. That seems like the most fundamental problem to me and a clear case that this is anticompetitive behavior.

Moto7451 5y ago
One bit of context to add: Amazon opted out selling ebooks one the app due to the the 30% fee imposed on purchasing in app/digital goods. They’re not disallowed from selling ebooks. I mention this because it’s both an important distinction and the same subject as Epic’s lawsuit.
- mcphage 5y ago
  Along the same lines, Comixology removed their ability to buy issues in-app when Amazon bought the company.
- jmole 5y ago
  But I can also fund a Robinhood account directly from my bank account through the iOS app and buy cryptocurrency. Or I can go on the ebay iOS app and buy a PDF ebook from a seller. The mechanism of "in-app purchases" doesn't scale to ebay or Amazon or any other store where you might have millions of SKUs. Not to mention that you can't even buy Kindle books on the iOS app, even if you already have credit on Amazon (gift card, rewards points, etc.).
crenwick 5y ago
I agree that it's a fundamental problem and anticompetitive behavior but I don't think it's as clear of a court case as this Epic v Apple. Users don't need to install the Amazon iOS app, instead they can use Safari where they can buy books and ebooks directly. Games like the ones Epic makes, however, cannot run in Safari. They are forced to go through Apple store and play by Apple's rules.
nonameiguess 5y ago
This weirded me the heck out when I switched from Android last year. I can't buy for my Kindle from the iOS Amazon app, but I can log into amazon.com, buy for the Kindle there, and then read in my Kindle app on iOS. It suggests a way anyone can circumvent Apple's restrictions too. Introduce an app whose only job is to act as a content player but has no content of its own, then have customers go to your website to buy the content, and then download it to your app. Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC.
- placatedmayhem 5y ago
  > Introduce an app whose only job is to act as a content player but has no content of its own, then have customers go to your website to buy the content, and then download it to your app. Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC. I believe this accurately describes Epic Games Store, or any other games storefront like Steam, as they work on desktop platforms like Windows. The Store is free, then all the games are paid (or sometimes, free) "DLC". Is there a fundamental difference I'm missing?
- esclerofilo 5y ago
  > Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC That would make the "empty" app qualify as a general-purpose computer and therefore break Apple's ToS. Oh, and if the app mentioned the possibility of going to the website, that would also break Apple's ToS.
- cosmie 5y ago
  Apple's guidelines already cover their bases to prevent such a loophole. The first clause of their Payments[1] guidelines explicitly states you're to use in-app purchases to unlock features and functionality within your app, while also forbidding you from linking to or directing users to any alternative purchasing mechanisms. They then make limited exemptions for "reader apps"[2] to allow users to consume content they've previously purchased, and explicitly list which categories of content they consider allowable for this exemption. Games not being one of them. They also make an exemption for multi-platform services which isn't as restrictive as the reader app clause, but only if you also abide by the first clause of making it available as an in-app purchase as well (and not direct people to alternatives for purchase). So this works for Amazon's Kindle app, but wouldn't for a gaming service. And even the way Amazon handles Kindle listings[3] in their main app is toeing the line of what Apple allows, and smaller companies would have a hard time pulling off. And just for good measure, they also pretty much spell out exactly what you described in the first bullet under the Unacceptable clause[4] [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#payments https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#pay... [2] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#reader-apps https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#rea... [3] "This app does not support purchasing. Books purchased from Amazon are available to read in the Kindle app" is what they put on the listing page. It's not a direct call to action so isn't strictly against the guidelines, but such a thinly veiled insinuation is something few other companies would be able to get passed app review. [4] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#unacceptable https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#una...

by jmole 5y ago

I can buy a book directly on the Amazon iOS app, but I can't buy an ebook. That seems like the most fundamental problem to me and a clear case that this is anticompetitive behavior.

Moto7451 5y ago

One bit of context to add: Amazon opted out selling ebooks one the app due to the the 30% fee imposed on purchasing in app/digital goods. They’re not disallowed from selling ebooks. I mention this because it’s both an important distinction and the same subject as Epic’s lawsuit.

mcphage 5y ago
Along the same lines, Comixology removed their ability to buy issues in-app when Amazon bought the company.
jmole 5y ago
But I can also fund a Robinhood account directly from my bank account through the iOS app and buy cryptocurrency. Or I can go on the ebay iOS app and buy a PDF ebook from a seller. The mechanism of "in-app purchases" doesn't scale to ebay or Amazon or any other store where you might have millions of SKUs. Not to mention that you can't even buy Kindle books on the iOS app, even if you already have credit on Amazon (gift card, rewards points, etc.).

crenwick 5y ago

I agree that it's a fundamental problem and anticompetitive behavior but I don't think it's as clear of a court case as this Epic v Apple. Users don't need to install the Amazon iOS app, instead they can use Safari where they can buy books and ebooks directly. Games like the ones Epic makes, however, cannot run in Safari. They are forced to go through Apple store and play by Apple's rules.

nonameiguess 5y ago

This weirded me the heck out when I switched from Android last year. I can't buy for my Kindle from the iOS Amazon app, but I can log into amazon.com, buy for the Kindle there, and then read in my Kindle app on iOS. It suggests a way anyone can circumvent Apple's restrictions too. Introduce an app whose only job is to act as a content player but has no content of its own, then have customers go to your website to buy the content, and then download it to your app. Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC.

placatedmayhem 5y ago
> Introduce an app whose only job is to act as a content player but has no content of its own, then have customers go to your website to buy the content, and then download it to your app. Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC. I believe this accurately describes Epic Games Store, or any other games storefront like Steam, as they work on desktop platforms like Windows. The Store is free, then all the games are paid (or sometimes, free) "DLC". Is there a fundamental difference I'm missing?
esclerofilo 5y ago
> Epic can sell one game that is empty and make every actual game DLC That would make the "empty" app qualify as a general-purpose computer and therefore break Apple's ToS. Oh, and if the app mentioned the possibility of going to the website, that would also break Apple's ToS.
cosmie 5y ago
Apple's guidelines already cover their bases to prevent such a loophole. The first clause of their Payments[1] guidelines explicitly states you're to use in-app purchases to unlock features and functionality within your app, while also forbidding you from linking to or directing users to any alternative purchasing mechanisms. They then make limited exemptions for "reader apps"[2] to allow users to consume content they've previously purchased, and explicitly list which categories of content they consider allowable for this exemption. Games not being one of them. They also make an exemption for multi-platform services which isn't as restrictive as the reader app clause, but only if you also abide by the first clause of making it available as an in-app purchase as well (and not direct people to alternatives for purchase). So this works for Amazon's Kindle app, but wouldn't for a gaming service. And even the way Amazon handles Kindle listings[3] in their main app is toeing the line of what Apple allows, and smaller companies would have a hard time pulling off. And just for good measure, they also pretty much spell out exactly what you described in the first bullet under the Unacceptable clause[4] [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#payments https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#pay... [2] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#reader-apps https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#rea... [3] "This app does not support purchasing. Books purchased from Amazon are available to read in the Kindle app" is what they put on the listing page. It's not a direct call to action so isn't strictly against the guidelines, but such a thinly veiled insinuation is something few other companies would be able to get passed app review. [4] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#unacceptable https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#una...