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> Is charging admission for beach volleyball a sexual service? This question actually perfectly articulates the difference. When you pay $5 to watch a beach v

> Is charging admission for beach volleyball a sexual service? This question actually perfectly articulates the difference. When you pay $5 to watch a beach volleyball tournament, you're paying for volleyball, and may as a side effect experience content that _some_ may find sexual. By Twitch's ToS, this should totally be allowed. As for my example, is there a nonsexual reason to pay a woman 5 dollars to bend over in front of you? What is it?

robbrown451 5y ago
So you've come up with an example that is clearly on one side of the line. Ok, but not sure what that proves. I don't think anyone has argued that there aren't any clear cut cases. What you are missing is that whatever rule you make, people are going to try to push the limits, because it gets them viewers. If twitch says that someone bending over in a bikini has no non-sexual purpose and therefore is against the rules, the creators could change the stream very slightly.... just enough so they can claim to be about exercise, yoga, modeling fashion, or dance. They'd still have the same audience, with the exact same reason for watching, but now it sneaks by the rule. Pole dancing is an art and takes athletic skill, sure, but most people (at least in the US) consider it is purely viewed for sexual gratification. But creators could claim its "main" purpose is to enjoy the dancing for its artistic and athletic merit. Sports Illustrated has a swim suit issue, and it's not about swimming so how is that sports? It's just an excuse. The majority of art channels on twitch are people drawing sexy (often anime-style) girls and women. You can learn to draw from them, but the sexier they make them, the more viewers they get. So... I really don't get what you are trying to say. You seem to not understand that there is gray area.
- void_mint 5y ago
  It seems that you think I'm referencing a contrived example to prove my point, when in reality I'm referencing the actual donation gifts for the vast majority of Hot Tub Streamers (which, please note, is not "people that sometimes stream in a hot tub", but is now a specific genre of stream of which many people exclusively stream). People have been sometimes streaming from hot tubs for years, and it's always been the exact grey area you're describing. Only very recently has it turned into a hypersexualized scenario, which is why Twitch is putting out more content condoning it. > You seem to not understand that there is gray area. I do. You don't seem to understand that the vast majority of the streams this change will encapsulate are not grey at all.
  - robbrown451 5y ago
    So how would you set the rules if you were running twitch?
    - void_mint 5y ago
      Well, I'm the wrong person to ask because I think my interests are actually oppositional to Twitch's goals but: I'd update ToS to ban nudity and literal sexual behavior (aka people cannot masturbate or use sex toys on stream), but relax the ToS to allow sexually suggestive content like hot tub streams, pole dancing, etc (basically just actualizing the ToS against the current unwritten rules). I'd probably move sexually suggestive content to a section of the site that gets their own ads (or no ads at all) and an updated revenue share to supplement the damage to Twitch's perceived brand and ad loss. Also, the NSFW area of the site is gatekept behind various age checks and doesn't get advertised on the main site (meaning, sexually suggestive streamers don't show up on the front page). With these updates, the ToS becomes legitimate, sexually suggestive content is no longer in violation, the site gets more appropriately segregated (gaming vs. sex). Win/win.

robbrown451 5y ago

So you've come up with an example that is clearly on one side of the line. Ok, but not sure what that proves. I don't think anyone has argued that there aren't any clear cut cases. What you are missing is that whatever rule you make, people are going to try to push the limits, because it gets them viewers. If twitch says that someone bending over in a bikini has no non-sexual purpose and therefore is against the rules, the creators could change the stream very slightly.... just enough so they can claim to be about exercise, yoga, modeling fashion, or dance. They'd still have the same audience, with the exact same reason for watching, but now it sneaks by the rule. Pole dancing is an art and takes athletic skill, sure, but most people (at least in the US) consider it is purely viewed for sexual gratification. But creators could claim its "main" purpose is to enjoy the dancing for its artistic and athletic merit. Sports Illustrated has a swim suit issue, and it's not about swimming so how is that sports? It's just an excuse. The majority of art channels on twitch are people drawing sexy (often anime-style) girls and women. You can learn to draw from them, but the sexier they make them, the more viewers they get. So... I really don't get what you are trying to say. You seem to not understand that there is gray area.

void_mint 5y ago
It seems that you think I'm referencing a contrived example to prove my point, when in reality I'm referencing the actual donation gifts for the vast majority of Hot Tub Streamers (which, please note, is not "people that sometimes stream in a hot tub", but is now a specific genre of stream of which many people exclusively stream). People have been sometimes streaming from hot tubs for years, and it's always been the exact grey area you're describing. Only very recently has it turned into a hypersexualized scenario, which is why Twitch is putting out more content condoning it. > You seem to not understand that there is gray area. I do. You don't seem to understand that the vast majority of the streams this change will encapsulate are not grey at all.
- robbrown451 5y ago
  So how would you set the rules if you were running twitch?
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Well, I'm the wrong person to ask because I think my interests are actually oppositional to Twitch's goals but: I'd update ToS to ban nudity and literal sexual behavior (aka people cannot masturbate or use sex toys on stream), but relax the ToS to allow sexually suggestive content like hot tub streams, pole dancing, etc (basically just actualizing the ToS against the current unwritten rules). I'd probably move sexually suggestive content to a section of the site that gets their own ads (or no ads at all) and an updated revenue share to supplement the damage to Twitch's perceived brand and ad loss. Also, the NSFW area of the site is gatekept behind various age checks and doesn't get advertised on the main site (meaning, sexually suggestive streamers don't show up on the front page). With these updates, the ToS becomes legitimate, sexually suggestive content is no longer in violation, the site gets more appropriately segregated (gaming vs. sex). Win/win.