3 ms·

I'm probably kind of ignorant here, but isn't there a difference between ISP and electricity providers though? When it comes to electricity, the infrastructure

by dudul 5y ago

I'm probably kind of ignorant here, but isn't there a difference between ISP and electricity providers though? When it comes to electricity, the infrastructure is used to bring the product (electricity) to the customer. When it comes to Internet, the infrastructure is the product. Say the infrastructure is now open for all companies. What is now the differentiator between Comcast and Fios? The infrastructure and the bandwidth it can handle is what they are selling.

cratermoon 5y ago
How is the infrastructure the product? If I buy a cable modem and plug it into the wall but don't cough up money to Comcast/XFinity, I get nothing, same as if I plug my coffee pot into an electrical outlet but don't pay the electric company for service.
- dudul 5y ago
  Electric cables can be shared by different companies because they still have the differentiator of how they get the electricity they sell you. Either they make it, or buy it and negotiate prices, etc. The electricity is the product, not how they get it to your house. What would be a differentiator for ISPs if the infrastructure was completely shared? The internet would be the same.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    oh, you have NO IDEA. How about: not hijacking your DNS to redirect domains? not using traffic shaping to favor content the ISP makes money from over other content? Not blocking torrent ports? Not having monthly usage caps? Not filtering or blocking content based on country of origin? Not blocking Tor? Not requiring you to rent the router/modem from the ISP and have them control it? In other words, all those Net Neutrality things that the FCC took away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
    - dudul 5y ago
      You do realize most of these things have very little impact on cost and are barely understandable for random normies. Tor? DNS? Like they're gonna put that in their marketing campaign?
      - cratermoon 5y ago
        I just happened to mention ones that would resonate with HN readers. Usage caps, filtering sites, and requiring modem rental are things that ordinary users care about. Remember that Comcast was rated "worst company in America" twice at Consumerist, and was runner up twice, and appeared in the final four two more times. As far as impact on cost, do you mean "cost to the consumer" or "cost to the company"?
        dudul 5y ago
        Comcast is the most hated company in America mostly because it charges random things that customers never authorized, because of how it structures its TV packages and because its support usually sucks. At least that's what I got from a quick google search. Nobody mentions data caps or filtering sites. As for modem rentals, again, most normies don't even know you can buy a modem at BestBuy. As for costs, I meant costs passed to the consumer. If we assume that the infrastructure is shared by 5 ISPs and they all contribute to its maintenance/upgrades. All ISPs offer the same down/up speeds and the reliability of the infrastructure is identical. What are the knobs to adjust costs to the customer and have them pick you? Pay support people less, have them work in shitty offices, do shady stuff with customer data. Maybe I'm not creative enough but other than reducing your internal cost of operation what can you do?
Dah00n 5y ago
edited for clarity >What is now the differentiator between Comcast and Fios? Price, support, included services, etc. For example the infrastructure owner of my fibre connection is exactly that: an infrastructure company. The infrastructure is really good but their internet support is really bad. On the other hand my ISP is running a very tight ship with no bloated services at all. No TV packages available, no phone option, no bundled streaming services, only direct payment with card transactions (because it is cheaper), only support by mail and so on. In the end I get a less bloated service meeting my exact needs at a lower price but my mother can pick another ISP that can provide her with the services she needs and only one company needs to run cables in the area. There are other differences too if going into details. Like the hardware they supply the end user (infrastructure owner supply the typical crappy WiFi router I'm sure you know and hate while my current ISP just gives me two external IPv4 and IPv6 addresses directly in the fibre box and that's it, I gotta take it from there). The hardware between the fibre into my house and the long haul fibre out in the streets is also supplied by the ISP. The infrastructure providers hardware is old 1 gigabit per port while the ISP's is... well I don't actually know but faster than 1 gigabit. This makes a small difference as my connection is 1 GB/s and 1 GB/s hardware cannot in practice deliver 1 GB/s so while one promise 950mbit the other promise the full gigabit. All in all I get a cheaper connection but I would use my current ISP even at the same price. To me it makes a big difference that the person I can contact isn't some fresh out of school boy who reads from a list but someone who can tell me "this is why your IPv6 temp. addresses setup isn't working. Try this init string..." :)

by dudul 5y ago

cratermoon 5y ago

How is the infrastructure the product? If I buy a cable modem and plug it into the wall but don't cough up money to Comcast/XFinity, I get nothing, same as if I plug my coffee pot into an electrical outlet but don't pay the electric company for service.

dudul 5y ago
Electric cables can be shared by different companies because they still have the differentiator of how they get the electricity they sell you. Either they make it, or buy it and negotiate prices, etc. The electricity is the product, not how they get it to your house. What would be a differentiator for ISPs if the infrastructure was completely shared? The internet would be the same.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  oh, you have NO IDEA. How about: not hijacking your DNS to redirect domains? not using traffic shaping to favor content the ISP makes money from over other content? Not blocking torrent ports? Not having monthly usage caps? Not filtering or blocking content based on country of origin? Not blocking Tor? Not requiring you to rent the router/modem from the ISP and have them control it? In other words, all those Net Neutrality things that the FCC took away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
  - dudul 5y ago
    You do realize most of these things have very little impact on cost and are barely understandable for random normies. Tor? DNS? Like they're gonna put that in their marketing campaign?
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      I just happened to mention ones that would resonate with HN readers. Usage caps, filtering sites, and requiring modem rental are things that ordinary users care about. Remember that Comcast was rated "worst company in America" twice at Consumerist, and was runner up twice, and appeared in the final four two more times. As far as impact on cost, do you mean "cost to the consumer" or "cost to the company"?
      - dudul 5y ago
        Comcast is the most hated company in America mostly because it charges random things that customers never authorized, because of how it structures its TV packages and because its support usually sucks. At least that's what I got from a quick google search. Nobody mentions data caps or filtering sites. As for modem rentals, again, most normies don't even know you can buy a modem at BestBuy. As for costs, I meant costs passed to the consumer. If we assume that the infrastructure is shared by 5 ISPs and they all contribute to its maintenance/upgrades. All ISPs offer the same down/up speeds and the reliability of the infrastructure is identical. What are the knobs to adjust costs to the customer and have them pick you? Pay support people less, have them work in shitty offices, do shady stuff with customer data. Maybe I'm not creative enough but other than reducing your internal cost of operation what can you do?

Dah00n 5y ago

edited for clarity >What is now the differentiator between Comcast and Fios? Price, support, included services, etc. For example the infrastructure owner of my fibre connection is exactly that: an infrastructure company. The infrastructure is really good but their internet support is really bad. On the other hand my ISP is running a very tight ship with no bloated services at all. No TV packages available, no phone option, no bundled streaming services, only direct payment with card transactions (because it is cheaper), only support by mail and so on. In the end I get a less bloated service meeting my exact needs at a lower price but my mother can pick another ISP that can provide her with the services she needs and only one company needs to run cables in the area. There are other differences too if going into details. Like the hardware they supply the end user (infrastructure owner supply the typical crappy WiFi router I'm sure you know and hate while my current ISP just gives me two external IPv4 and IPv6 addresses directly in the fibre box and that's it, I gotta take it from there). The hardware between the fibre into my house and the long haul fibre out in the streets is also supplied by the ISP. The infrastructure providers hardware is old 1 gigabit per port while the ISP's is... well I don't actually know but faster than 1 gigabit. This makes a small difference as my connection is 1 GB/s and 1 GB/s hardware cannot in practice deliver 1 GB/s so while one promise 950mbit the other promise the full gigabit. All in all I get a cheaper connection but I would use my current ISP even at the same price. To me it makes a big difference that the person I can contact isn't some fresh out of school boy who reads from a list but someone who can tell me "this is why your IPv6 temp. addresses setup isn't working. Try this init string..." :)