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Hasn’t the business model been either top-notch gaming or this, the soft core porn niche? I mean, most women streaming on twitch are using their looks and body

Hasn’t the business model been either top-notch gaming or this, the soft core porn niche? I mean, most women streaming on twitch are using their looks and body for viewership. It’s the oldest play in the book. It’s all over YouTube as well (show a girl in a thong, get a million views). Twitch should just create a NSFW/Verified 18+ section and be done with it. I think the real issue is with advertisers. They don’t want to be associated with porn or even suggestive content. Twitch won’t police their platform so people are going to continue meeting the “bare minimum” definition and argue they are following the rules.

bluefirebrand 5y ago
> I mean, most women streaming on twitch are using their looks and body for viewership. It’s the oldest play in the book This is the real sticking point. If they came down hard against titty streamers they would be destroying a large portion of their own viewer base. Not to mention how bad it would look from a "Twitch is being sexist" viewpoint. Top male streamers would continue to do extremely well, male streamers would be unaffected almost entirely ( I bet some stream shirtless or whatever sometimes and might get in trouble from that ) But lets be real, such a crackdown would basically only effect women.
- viraptor 5y ago
  Also any policy like that would hit women who are into positive body expression, without trying to use it as a popularity tool. I.e. they'd have to figure out how to tell apart those who work on being suggestive for money and that who just enjoy being suggestive in life. Kind of like the repeating issue for https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg who as far as I can tell is strongly in the second category. But that's in the mind reading area - they just can't do it reliably.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > they'd have to figure out how to tell apart those who work on being suggestive for money and that who just enjoy being suggestive in life I don't think they'd bother trying to tell them apart. The issue Twitch wants to police here isn't the willingness or coercion, it's the suggestiveness behaviour entirely.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      If they actually attempted that, it would blow up in their face, because there's no clear line. There will always be very attractive women who will not want to cover themselves up just to satisfy some policy. They will get flagged in that situation as suggestive either maliciously or in genuine false positives. (This already happens in other places, which is why I'm so certain)
  - gabereiser 5y ago
    I’m all about body positivity but the policies of twitch are really hit or miss with who they come down on and who they let off the hook. It’s inconsistent. Super streamers get booted off for making a simple stupid side cuff rant yet violators of their policies continue to stream without recourse. It’s like it’s moderated by 16 year olds.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      This is a consistent problem among all social media platforms, imo. My theory is there a couple of key problems that lead to this crummy moderation, but it essentially all stems from the fact these platforms are too huge to moderate effectively. First, because they are so huge, they have limited customer support. It's very hard to get ahold of a human being at any of these companies, because users are not the customers. Second, to offset the challenge of moderating at scale, they have a lot of automation. This leads to people getting moderated without nuance. We don't notice the false negatives or when it's working right, but there are many false positives (because the platform is huge) and news about them spreads rapidly. Then because there is no real avenue for customer support, people can't get it fixed. Third, because there are no real repercussions, moderators play favourites. There is no real customer service channel so complaints against bad moderating go largely unheard. When you heard about a channel being unbanned almost immediately when larger channels stay banned and it never seems to be fixed, that's likely a human who has a bias towards one over another. People who have an in with the moderation team can get preferential treatment for sure. This is all just a theory. These companies don't really have any incentive to investigate their moderation teams for this sort of behavior so they probably don't. And if they did investigate it, they certainly wouldn't tell anyone if they found evidence of it.
      - ryandrake 5y ago
        > Third, because there are no real repercussions, moderators play favourites. There is no real customer service channel so complaints against bad moderating go largely unheard. When you heard about a channel being unbanned almost immediately when larger channels stay banned and it never seems to be fixed, that's likely a human who has a bias towards one over another. People who have an in with the moderation team can get preferential treatment for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if all the massive user generated content sites have hand-curated Do Not Ban lists to protect their top VIP users from the whims of the algorithms. Would a top-100 app ever get automation-banned from the Apple Store? Would a popular celebrity get automation-banned from Twitter? I bet, for the select list of "favorites," any ban action goes through multiple levels of human judgment. For the rest of us schmucks, it's a roll of the algorithm dice.
  - throway98752343 5y ago
    Isn't body positivity supposed to be celebrating bodies that aren't traditionally attractive?
    - viraptor 5y ago
      It's more generic - basically it's about not judging people's worth or intentions by their bodies. Whether they're unusually obese, unusually sexually attractive, unusually something else...
      - throway98752343 5y ago
        Oh, I had it wrong then. The generic version sounds like "not seeing race"
  - chevill 5y ago
    Not familiar with her at all but after looking at her youtube channel for a few minutes, what makes you put her in the second category? Honest question, not judging just curious what sets her apart in your mind? I think there's a chance she has good content to go along with her obvious attempts to use her sexuality to get clicks, but to me it looks like she's being suggestive explicitly for money in addition to whatever else she might do. And there are lots of people that use their sexuality for money and also have some kind of actual content to go along with it IMO. There's a spectrum of behavior in streaming/youtubing.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

> I mean, most women streaming on twitch are using their looks and body for viewership. It’s the oldest play in the book This is the real sticking point. If they came down hard against titty streamers they would be destroying a large portion of their own viewer base. Not to mention how bad it would look from a "Twitch is being sexist" viewpoint. Top male streamers would continue to do extremely well, male streamers would be unaffected almost entirely ( I bet some stream shirtless or whatever sometimes and might get in trouble from that ) But lets be real, such a crackdown would basically only effect women.

viraptor 5y ago
Also any policy like that would hit women who are into positive body expression, without trying to use it as a popularity tool. I.e. they'd have to figure out how to tell apart those who work on being suggestive for money and that who just enjoy being suggestive in life. Kind of like the repeating issue for https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg who as far as I can tell is strongly in the second category. But that's in the mind reading area - they just can't do it reliably.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > they'd have to figure out how to tell apart those who work on being suggestive for money and that who just enjoy being suggestive in life I don't think they'd bother trying to tell them apart. The issue Twitch wants to police here isn't the willingness or coercion, it's the suggestiveness behaviour entirely.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    If they actually attempted that, it would blow up in their face, because there's no clear line. There will always be very attractive women who will not want to cover themselves up just to satisfy some policy. They will get flagged in that situation as suggestive either maliciously or in genuine false positives. (This already happens in other places, which is why I'm so certain)
- gabereiser 5y ago
  I’m all about body positivity but the policies of twitch are really hit or miss with who they come down on and who they let off the hook. It’s inconsistent. Super streamers get booted off for making a simple stupid side cuff rant yet violators of their policies continue to stream without recourse. It’s like it’s moderated by 16 year olds.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    This is a consistent problem among all social media platforms, imo. My theory is there a couple of key problems that lead to this crummy moderation, but it essentially all stems from the fact these platforms are too huge to moderate effectively. First, because they are so huge, they have limited customer support. It's very hard to get ahold of a human being at any of these companies, because users are not the customers. Second, to offset the challenge of moderating at scale, they have a lot of automation. This leads to people getting moderated without nuance. We don't notice the false negatives or when it's working right, but there are many false positives (because the platform is huge) and news about them spreads rapidly. Then because there is no real avenue for customer support, people can't get it fixed. Third, because there are no real repercussions, moderators play favourites. There is no real customer service channel so complaints against bad moderating go largely unheard. When you heard about a channel being unbanned almost immediately when larger channels stay banned and it never seems to be fixed, that's likely a human who has a bias towards one over another. People who have an in with the moderation team can get preferential treatment for sure. This is all just a theory. These companies don't really have any incentive to investigate their moderation teams for this sort of behavior so they probably don't. And if they did investigate it, they certainly wouldn't tell anyone if they found evidence of it.
    - ryandrake 5y ago
      > Third, because there are no real repercussions, moderators play favourites. There is no real customer service channel so complaints against bad moderating go largely unheard. When you heard about a channel being unbanned almost immediately when larger channels stay banned and it never seems to be fixed, that's likely a human who has a bias towards one over another. People who have an in with the moderation team can get preferential treatment for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if all the massive user generated content sites have hand-curated Do Not Ban lists to protect their top VIP users from the whims of the algorithms. Would a top-100 app ever get automation-banned from the Apple Store? Would a popular celebrity get automation-banned from Twitter? I bet, for the select list of "favorites," any ban action goes through multiple levels of human judgment. For the rest of us schmucks, it's a roll of the algorithm dice.
- throway98752343 5y ago
  Isn't body positivity supposed to be celebrating bodies that aren't traditionally attractive?
  - viraptor 5y ago
    It's more generic - basically it's about not judging people's worth or intentions by their bodies. Whether they're unusually obese, unusually sexually attractive, unusually something else...
    - throway98752343 5y ago
      Oh, I had it wrong then. The generic version sounds like "not seeing race"
- chevill 5y ago
  Not familiar with her at all but after looking at her youtube channel for a few minutes, what makes you put her in the second category? Honest question, not judging just curious what sets her apart in your mind? I think there's a chance she has good content to go along with her obvious attempts to use her sexuality to get clicks, but to me it looks like she's being suggestive explicitly for money in addition to whatever else she might do. And there are lots of people that use their sexuality for money and also have some kind of actual content to go along with it IMO. There's a spectrum of behavior in streaming/youtubing.